Greenlizard0 PL Football Thread Final Day ** spoilers ** [26th July 2020]

[Shamikebab]

And switch KdB and Pogba around and you'd be saying the same thing about him. You're missing the fact it's a team game. One player cannot drag the team up if the rest of the team isn't performing. KdB is surrounded by the deepest squad in world football in a side that is specifically set up around the way he plays with one of the best managers in the world. Pogba had to put up with a few seasons under negative nancy Mourinho and now he's in a team that is still in transition. We've had a lot of players leave and join and have a very young squad. He also plays much deeper than De Bruyne, a fairer comparison for him would be Fernandes.

 

[BaZ87]

And switch KdB and Pogba around and you'd be saying the same thing about him.....

No I wouldn't. When City have struggled in games you haven't seen KdB just ambling around the pitch like he's not got a care in the world. KdB's also has dragged this City team through the season, producing his best ever football despite the struggles of the side he's playing in. And this is why Pogba draws criticism, whether it's your KdB's of today or your Gerrard's, Keane's & Vieira's of 15-20 years ago, all these players didn't just perform when everything was going their way, they were the players that stepped up and dragged their sides through difficult periods. Pogba instead does his teapot impression, asks to leave the club or decides he's not fit enough to play.

Pogba's a fairweather player that for periods within games or even over a couple of months will look like a world class midfielder but after 4 seasons at Utd he's not produced an entire season where anybody could honestly say that £90-105m was nearly good business. It would like me turning around and saying Keita's justified his £50m odd pricetag. He hasn't. He's shown in spells that he's an incredibly talented player (and the stattos will pull out a per 90 graph to show it too) but for one reason or another he's not been able to perform consistently for a prolonged period and really kick-on. Fortunately for us, he/his people haven't been a **** or disruptive, we've been able to succeed without him and he's only been here for 2 years. If in 12 months he's still not kicked on then you can be sure that we'll be looking to replace him and certainly wouldn't be saying his signing lived up to expectations.

Anyway, we're not going to agree but if in 9 months Pogba is still at Utd and the next story comes out that he wants to leave I will say I told you so

 

[Shamikebab]

Pogba has dragged us through plenty of periods of poor performance too, most notably the comebacks against City or Newcastle in the last few years. The 'ambling around' stuff is mostly the media and isn't backed up by stats.

The way I look at it is, could we have bought anyone else better for that money? I don't see that we could.

 

[BaZ87]

That's both terrifying and a fair reflection on Utd's recruitment over the past 7 years I'm not sure I agree with your conclusion anyway but you seem to be looking at it as if you could only sign one other central midfielder instead of Pogba but for the fee you paid on Pogba you could have signed, for example, Kante, Bernardo and Mane. And this comes back to the issue around why the fee is important - for the amount Utd paid on Pogba, they could have improved their side far more had they spent it elsewhere.

And re his walking, I'm sure a year or so ago Sky produced a graphic that showed he spent the highest amount of time walking compared to other midfielders in the League.

 

[Pigeon_Killer]

He was ambling about in the game yesterday. He got caught on the ball a couple of times and just let his man run at goal after grabbing him failed. He might be more talented than Bruno but Bruno's got talent and the right attitude for a team that want to be champions. Pogba's a luxury player and his attitude stinks.

 

[Shamikebab]

Well all three of those cost more, and of those Kante only wanted Chelsea. Not convinced Bernardo Silva would fit us but I would have liked Mane sure.

 

[BaZ87]

I was just using those 3 as rough examples of how Utd could have spent about the same money and ended up much better off - they only cost £10m or so more and I'm not sure what system Utd had at the time they signed Pogba that was set in stone.

 

[adam cool dude]

I was just using those 3 as rough examples of how Utd could have spent about the same money and ended up much better off - they only cost £10m or so more and I'm not sure what system Utd had at the time they signed Pogba that was set in stone.

We should have bought Mbappe when he was 5 years old and abducted Messi's mother when she was pregnant. It is easy to look in hindsight.

Mane has easily been your best forward player yet it would have been impossible to predict when he was at Southampton. They same with VVD.

When Pogba was bought from Juventus (Not Southampton) he was one of the best players in the world and commanded that fee. Unfortunately that is the way it goes.

 

[Kenai]

The moral of the story is that you should buy from Southampton if you want success. We'll do you a deal on Lemina and Carillo. We could throw in Hoedt if you want to replace Maguire with true Dutch defensive solidity like Virgil.

 

[BaZ87]

We should have bought Mbappe when he was 5 years old and abducted Messi's mother when she was pregnant. It is easy to look in hindsight.

Mane has easily been your best forward player yet it would have been impossible to predict when he was at Southampton. They same with VVD.

When Pogba was bought from Juventus (Not Southampton) he was one of the best players in the world and commanded that fee. Unfortunately that is the way it goes.

Of course it's easier to say in hindsight, I've not disputed that but the debate with Shami was whether Utd have got value for money for what they spent. It's not simply a case of 1 or 2 players that could have been better signings, there's lots of different variations of spending £100m that would have made Utd stronger and not just marginally too. Utd clearly could have spent the money they spent on Pogba another way and been better off.

As for the Juve/Southampton & Mane comment - that's why clubs have scouts It's not impossible to predict, that's literally the job of recruitment teams to spot players, regardless of where they're playing.

And go read back the transfer thread on here and look at the comments around Pogba's signing. It's not just after the event that people said he was not worth £100m. I can clearly remember the weeks passing and watching the reported figure creep up from £50m to £60m to £70m to £105m and the general view was it was crazy money.

 

[Andybtsn]

The moral of the story is that you should buy from Southampton if you want success. We'll do you a deal on Lemina and Carillo. We could throw in Hoedt if you want to replace Maguire with true Dutch defensive solidity like Virgil.

It wasn't that long ago when they were getting the **** ripped out out of them for buying Lambert, Lallana and Lovren

 

[BaZ87]

It wasn't that long ago when they were getting the **** ripped out out of them for buying Lambert, Lallana and Lovren

Two are those a PL, CL & World Club Cup winners Andrew so shut it

 

[adam cool dude]

Of course it's easier to say in hindsight, I've not disputed that but the debate with Shami was whether Utd have got value for money for what they spent. It's not simply a case of 1 or 2 players that could have been better signings, there's lots of different variations of spending £100m that would have made Utd stronger and not just marginally too. Utd clearly could have spent the money they spent on Pogba another way and been better off.

As for the Juve/Southampton & Mane comment - that's why clubs have scouts It's not impossible to predict, that's literally the job of recruitment teams to spot players, regardless of where they're playing.

And go read back the transfer thread on here and look at the comments around Pogba's signing. It's not just after the event that people said he was not worth £100m. I can clearly remember the weeks passing and watching the reported figure creep up from £50m to £60m to £70m to £105m and the general view was it was crazy money.

Lol like Benteke, Andy Carrol were near enough 80 million together. Fantastic scouts there. Get off your high horse.

 

[BaZ87]

Lol like Benteke, Andy Carrol were near enough 80 million together. Fantastic scouts there. Get off your high horse.

Following up one silly post with a 2nd, at least you're consistent. It would be great if you read back the debate between me and Shami so that you understand what we're discussing and don't come out with a 3rd.

At not point have I said Liverpool's scouts and recruitment team have been great, although lets be fair they have been, highlighted by the fact that you have to go back 5+ years to find an example of a poor signing we've made. I was discussing with Shami whether Pogba's signing had been successful and you'd got value for what you spent - your reply of "he was a good player for Juventus" isn't a justification for saying it was money well spent just like if I turned around and said "well Carroll looked great at Newcastle for 5 months". The question is whether he justified his pricetag with what he's done in the last 4 years and he clearly hasn't. Shami then suggested that he didn't think you could have signed somebody else and been better off and I think it's pretty clear that there's been numerous players signed, that even on their own have performed far better than him and given that they cost a fraction of his price, you could have signed several of them.

Your claim that it's impossible to say how a player would progress is complete nonsense though. Why on earth do clubs have scouts and analytic teams? According to you it's a lucky dip whether they're successful or not.

 

[Shamikebab]

Well hang on, I said I didn't think there was a player we could have got that could do what Pogba did for us. You then named 3 players who play completely different positions. I'm still not sure there was a player we could have signed that would be better. The only ones I can think that even moved in that timeframe are Kroos and Thiago, and both of those had already moved by then.

 

[BaZ87]

This is what you said and I replied to:

The way I look at it is, could we have bought anyone else better for that money? I don't see that we could.

And as I said in my reply, I'm not sure why you'd look at it as a 1 for 1 and this highlights why fees are important and why £60m, £70m, £100m players do face more scrutiny because for what you paid you could have signed multiple other players. And in this case Utd could have signed any number of combinations of £20-35m players that would have improved their side as a whole more than spending £100m on Pogba.

edit: it's like discussing Chelsea now, how many people are questioning the logic of them signing all these forwards when they've got a keeper that can't catch a cold and a defence with more holes in it than a block of swiss cheese. The Utd squad that Mourinho took over needed a lot of things, not just a CM but Utd spent a huge chunk of their budget on a CM when clearly, with hindsight, they could have improved the side overall spending it on multiple other players.

 

[Shamikebab]

Obviously I mean in the same position, if we need a midfielder buying a winger is no good. Right now we need a right winger, should we give up on Sancho and buy a left back instead?

 

[omnomnom]

Pogba at least had some weight and a reputation behind him. Even United fans knew signing Maguire was underwhelming. That is the transfer that needs questioning imo.

 

[BaZ87]

Obviously I mean in the same position, if we need a midfielder buying a winger is no good. Right now we need a right winger, should we give up on Sancho and buy a left back instead?

I knew what you meant and acknowledged that in both of my replies but you needed more than just a CM which was the point as to why x, y and z would have improved you more. If you go and sign Sancho this summer, he has a season no better than Ziyech and De Gea's still throwing them in at the back then it would be perfectly logical to question why you spent £100m on Sancho when other areas of your side were clearly lacking.

This keeps coming back to the issue of the huge fee and why if you're going to spend massive money on somebody, they've got to hit the ground flying because signing them, in most cases, means you've taken money away from improving other areas (or improving them more).

 

[Shamikebab]

Pogba at least had some weight and a reputation behind him. Even United fans knew signing Maguire was underwhelming. That is the transfer that needs questioning imo.

Not really, we needed a left sided centre back and a leader and he's filled that role. The fee was a little high but again, who was available that was better? He's turned our defence around and made it one of the best in the league.