Greenlizard0 Weekend Football Thread ** spoilers ** [30th Mar - 2nd April 2012]

You do realsie that cm1179 didnt compare UTD to tottenham,.

hurray!

the reason i was commenting on united was 1. they played last night 2. they're top of the league.

should they be top of the league? in terms of performance and entertainment, absoloutely not, there are far more entertaining teams. in terms of self belief, management, discipline, team spirit? yes

shock horror as the team at the top gets talked about!

to be fair and bring spurs into it, we can match you in many positions. what we don't have is the experience, the belief and rooney. rooney is paying you back for his little tantrum big time. arsenal have van persie, chelsea have lampard, liverpool have gerrard, spurs have scott parker (a watered down version, a top bloke and a top player but not a massive voice and can't score)

spurs have played some cracking stuff yet united have put a total of 8(?) goals past us, beating us twice but overall, we've played the better stuff over the duration but we don't have what you have.

welbeck is **** poor imo but the fact he is playing for man utd runs through his veins, this is highly evident and is the team spirit i am on about. but would danny welbeck have gotten into a united shirt <2005? i doubt it.

what you need to realise is when ferguson, scholes and giggs call it a day, you are going to have to do a lot to claw it back.
 
Its a combination of conditioning, drilling, confidence, expectation with a few top class players thrown in who make a difference.

Neville, rafael arent world beaters but neville was possibly the best functional english RB. Put them next to vidic (great player), Rio (great player) and Evra (great player and you have a fantastic back 4. Throw in Edwin van der sarr. Then regardless of how average Carrick, or Fletcher, or Park perform, you know you have a solid back 4. As long as the others utilise their drilling and conditioning to close space inf ront of the defenders and know to pass the ball out wide...

throw in some wingers with trickery and pace, and your opoponents have a problem already. not only are you a hard team to break dowbn, you can use pace and width to pull the opponents apart if they start to overload the centre midfield positions on the counter attack. Add some all star forward like Rooney , and a pace man, like hernandez, or a skill man like berbatov, and you a, wont concedce many, b, will score a lot without having to control the center midfield completely or play through that area.

The problem that other teams have trying to rtecreate this is that as soon as they get a hard working player who is skillful/fast/a goalscorer, UTD, City or someone else just come in and buy them before you can get the full team drilled perfectly. UTD can buy them at any stage of their career, usually young, so they can add in the drills and confidence that another less well off club would not be able to do because they dont have experience of it, and their team will get pulled apart as soon as their players start to stand out from the crowd.
 
Carroll's dive from another angle...

horse.gif
 
should they be top of the league? in terms of performance and entertainment, absoloutely not, there are far more entertaining teams. in terms of self belief, management, discipline, team spirit? yes

And hereby lies my problem with your mentality, time and time again you use this imaginary prerequisite that the team that plays the 'best' football should be the team that's top of the league, news flash Swansea pass the ball better than Spurs does that make them more deserving of your 4th place?

to be fair and bring spurs into it, we can match you in many positions. what we don't have is the experience, the belief and rooney.

And a better defence, and better strength in depth and a better manager :)

what you need to realise is when ferguson, scholes and giggs call it a day, you are going to have to do a lot to claw it back.

Claw back from whom? Who's to say what state the league is going to be in in 4 or 5 years time when Fergie retires, what you need to realise is that your perception that we're only top of the league because mental strength and self belief and other than the majority of our players are all pretty average is naive to the extreme.

then what do you think it is?

It's a combination of everything every title winning side has, we dominate most games and control the possession, we score goals, we've got a good defence and yes we've got a great manager who installs great self belief in his players but we didn't bore the ball into the back of the net against Arsenal 8 times back in September nor did we bore the ball into the back of the Wolves net 5 times the other week.

If you want me to compare United with Spurs and tell you where you're going wrong I will, you play pretty football without actually creating chances and more importantly scoring goals, your defence is nothing better than average and your manager who like Fergie installs great self belief in them but lacks the tactical awareness
 
Haha, I remember him signing for Forest, then we sent him out on loan and he got in trouble with some gangsters or something? I can't really remember. There was an article in a fourfourtwo last year about him.
 
I think it's a little unfair that it seems only Manchester United are judged by such harsh standards, performance wise.
For example, i've seen a lot of City of late and they have been far worst than our current form but nothing is ever said.
But every year its the same story, despite winning the title most times :confused:

That's the thing though, an average performance isn't the same thing for Utd and Wigan, Wigan *****ing a draw at Blackburn would be a decent result, for Utd it would be woeful. Wigan beating Blackburn 2-0 would be a fantastic result, for Utd, its an expected result.

There are really two reasons to judge Utd more critically, baseline for a team at the top of the league SHOULD be way above most other teams, secondly, Utd can play exceptionally good football so if you compare all their football to their best possible football, you get your comparison, compare Utd's performance to the average Wigan performance and you'd have a very different conclusion.

Utd managed to go through a game against a **** team with several players making consistently poor passes(a successful pass is NOT automatically a good pass, there are stats and there are stats), poor positioning and left themselves open to attack against a poor side barely trying to get forward. The vast majority of Yakubu's attacks or being able to hold the ball up and pass it on were times Carrick completely misjudged the bounce of the ball, ran up to intercept and missed, missed a tackle, etc, etc, NONE of those mistakes end up on any stats anywhere, but mistakes they are and led to several chances for Blackburn.

They scored two late-ish goals, one of which should have been saved. When you see the angle of the ball inexplicably Robinson tried to dive down his line, rather than at the ball, the ball crossed the line further away from where Robinson started, than had Robinson dived outwards from the goal.

It was competant, it was average, it was a win, it was against a side that were for the huge majority of the game, very poor, making very little effort to go forwards and Utd's attempts to break down the team were poor for the best part of what, 70minutes.

I haven't once said its a terrible or woeful performance, average, at best, is where its at. Great result, no where near a great performance.
 
No we didn't play fantastic football, we weren't as woeful as people make out either though - it wasn't the worst or best i've seen this season from us.
Exactly, people seem to be making it out like it was either comparible with the games against Arsenal or Spurs at the start of the season or Norwich and Fulham in recent weeks. It wasn't comparible to either, it was just solid.

And let us not forget, Blackburn were playing for a draw from the first minute and their efforts were either from range or set-pieces. It's always hard to break down a team who primarily aren't focussed on scoring. Once we got that first goal you could see their players very noticeably deflate, their heads dropped and it was over.

It's either one extreme or another on this place, it's ever so frustrating and you usually can't have a good conversation, Nokkon seems to be able to talk sense rather than babble back and forwards constantly over the same arguments, finally!
Haha, give me time! :p

I became most frustrated with the fact we constantly used the same tactic of pass it out to Valencia, he puts in a cross, no one wants it or they get it too easily. That was annoying as heck and wasn't getting us anywhere, things started to get better once we had Giggs/Young on and we could actually play it elsewhere.

By 70 minutes or something Valencia had swung in 20+ crosses I think the commentators said, they weren't terrible crosses but it was either just Welbeck or Hernandez in there and it wasn't working, this is where the issue was.
Exactly, on a better day, or one with more balance without worrying about being overloaded it wouldn't take that many crosses. Sadly the instinct of Jones wasn't to get in the box and attack these crosses, but then why would it be, he's a CB and it's hard to blame him for that, but Welbeck and Hernandez aren't exactly imposing. Someone like Nistelrooy back in the day would have been on those crosses, of which half were very good and quite possibly have bagged a couple.

We're just as likely to score from 1 or 2 crosses in another game.

Plus, at least Fergie is finally realising again that Rafael is our best RB. It's been such a shame that he's hardly played there this season, despite his injuries.
Yes! I understand that at the start of the season it was necessity and Smalling/Jones did quite well, but after their first injuries they were clearly not the same. Valencia tries valiantly but ultimately he's a wide man. Supporting a RB he's excellent, but his reading of the game when playing at RB shows. The only player he did a really good job on was Downing against Liverpool because he knew Downing had to try and beat him on the outside (often giving him a good 5 yards to sling a cross in with his right foot - he never did.)

Rafael when playing with Valencia is transformed, he knows when he runs the overlap that if it doesn't come to anything he will have Valencia busting a gut to get back and Evans coming across, he'll then come back and fill the gap Evans left or, if back in time, take the RW/RB spot. This falls apart with Nani, but that's Nani's game and that's not going to change but it definitely impacts what Rafael can do. He made 116 touches last night, the highest on the pitch and had one of the highest pass completions in the match. This was also true of the game against Fulham where he also made 100+ touches. In his last 3 games playing with Valencia he's been able to come inside for a 1-2 (something he only does with Valencia) and get a shot on goal (albeit they were tame efforts against Wolves and Fulham with the left.)

Interestingly in recent years Rafael has been swapped out for the likes of Brown, O'Shea and even Smalling due to his height against taller teams, but he doesn't get enough credit for his quality in the air. His tenacious attitude means he never gives up on things and much like Evra, tends to do quite well in aerial battles. His weakness of course is diving in and selling himself. Cutting this out would be a big improvement on his game, but people tend to forget that he's still one of the youngest players in the squad.


Carroll's dive from another angle...

horse.gif
That's a horse, not a Donkey.

note: I don't think Carroll has done *that* badly recently. The weekend he made a mistake and the team didn't play to his strengths. Square peg, round hole, but in recent weeks he's worked his socks off.


That's the thing though, an average performance isn't the same thing for Utd and Wigan, Wigan *****ing a draw at Blackburn would be a decent result, for Utd it would be woeful. Wigan beating Blackburn 2-0 would be a fantastic result, for Utd, its an expected result.
You also need to remember that when Wigan play Blackburn, Blackburn will try and get a result themselves, open up and as a result, leave bigger gaps. When they play us they play for a draw and make it hard to break down. Of course, we should be able to open them up, that's what you have those kinds of players for, but it's also not the same kind of match.
 
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You also need to remember that when Wigan play Blackburn, Blackburn will try and get a result themselves, open up and as a result, leave bigger gaps. When they play us they play for a draw and make it hard to break down. Of course, we should be able to open them up, that's what you have those kinds of players for, but it's also not the same kind of match.

The thing is they didn't sit back that much. When they did attack it's not like they were hoofing it to a solo striker. They were attacking with a good 3/4 players usually along the ground. Our passing tempo was pretty slow which made it look like they were keeping everyone behind the ball the whole time.
 
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