Greta Thunberg

Soldato
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And who do you think gets most of the cash??
Look at all these charity bosses and you will find the are paid big bucks.
And don't forget the tax breaks for giving cash to a charity
It's all about the money.
You think Greta does it all for the money?

You might get tax relief on gifting to a charity but it's not like you are going to get back more than you give, so it's ever actually a financial benefit. Hope you didn't think that's somehow the case.. and if you are aware that it's not then what are you even talking about?
 
Soldato
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You think Greta does it all for the money?

You might get tax relief on gifting to a charity but it's not like you are going to get back more than you give, so it's ever actually a financial benefit. Hope you didn't think that's somehow the case.. and if you are aware that it's not then what are you even talking about?

Greta does what her parents tell her. Does anyone believe that it was all her own doing? :cry: Sadly she's just used as a meat shield to deflect any criticism, who is going to risk looking bad in the current world by arguing with a young autistic girl? Political suicide.
 
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"Under construction" and "operational" are not the same. I choose my words carefully. As it's Elon Musk I'll reserve judgement until they are up and working and backing up the nations renewables ;)

From the below link: "Nonetheless, it can be considered something of a landmark project for the UK, which now has around 1.3GW of operational grid-connected battery storage."

https://www.energy-storage.news/wha...argest-grid-connected-battery-project-so-far/

Careful words or not it doesn't seem like operational grid storage is decades away as you stated. And the link below details operational Tesla grid storage:

https://electrek.co/2021/06/30/tesl...attery-replacing-gas-peaker-plant-california/

Greta does what her parents tell her. Does anyone believe that it was all her own doing? :cry: Sadly she's just used as a meat shield to deflect any criticism, who is going to risk looking bad in the current world by arguing with a young autistic girl? Political suicide.

Do you actually disagree with what she says, or what she campaigns for?
 
Soldato
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From the below link: "Nonetheless, it can be considered something of a landmark project for the UK, which now has around 1.3GW of operational grid-connected battery storage."

https://www.energy-storage.news/wha...argest-grid-connected-battery-project-so-far/

Careful words or not it doesn't seem like operational grid storage is decades away as you stated. And the link below details operational Tesla grid storage:

https://electrek.co/2021/06/30/tesl...attery-replacing-gas-peaker-plant-california/



Do you actually disagree with what she says, or what she campaigns for?

You're obviously quite into the subject so any idea how much battery capacity we would need to store one day's worth of UK electricity consumption?
 
Soldato
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This has been dubunked many times in this thread.

You can't possibly debunk something if you weren't there. No more than I can prove the opposite. The average small child knows nothing and what they know mostly comes from their parents. Believe what you like but I feel sorry for her being exploited like that.
 
Soldato
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You're obviously quite into the subject so any idea how much battery capacity we would need to store one day's worth of UK electricity consumption?

I'm not that interested. But I have access to Google and with 30 seconds of searching it was clear you were incorrect about operational grid storage.

From another 30 second Google I've found a National Grid article (that's a FTSE100 company responsible for UK infrastructure, rather than a teenage girl if that helps you) that explains how battery grid storage works. You wouldn't attempt to store enough electricity to supply the UK for one day. You build enough storage to smooth out the peaks and troughs in inconsistent renewable generation.

https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/energy-explained/what-is-battery-storage
 
Soldato
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You can't possibly debunk something if you weren't there. No more than I can prove the opposite. The average small child knows nothing and what they know mostly comes from their parents. Believe what you like but I feel sorry for her being exploited like that.

Isn’t she 19 (otherwise known as an adult) and not 5 (a small child)?
 
Soldato
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A GW is how fast you can go a GWh is how big the fuel tank is. 1.5GW of battery storage is meaningless with out the capacity. Battery storage is really good for grid load compensation on the second by second basis something that fossil power station do but a battery can do better. So batteries have been stealing one of the things fossil power stations were paid to provide and undermining the economic case for their continued operation. Which is a bad thing because we still need reliable generation so we have to pay them extra subsidies.

So keep the number easy. Winter peak is currently 60GW that's 60 million KW's. Imagine a renewables only future backed by batteries. So to last 3 days you need 3 days of 18 hours at 30 GW's and 6 hours at 60GW's [For illustrative easy numbers but not a million miles off].
So 18 times 3 = 54hours > 54 times 30 GW = 1,620GWh (1,620 million KWh's)
So 6 times 3 days = 18 hours > 18 times 60 GW = 10,80 GWh (1,080 million KWh's)

Total = 2,7 TWh or 2,700 GWh, or 2,700 million KWh's.

Assume we can build batteries for £100 KWh installed and connected price. A reasonable assumption in the long run.

£100 times 2,700,000,000 = £270Bn for 3 days storage.

Making the job easier: Plainly nukes will lower the demand up front and help with charging overnight if you build enough. £100 per KWh might be improved upon. Wind and solar is never truly zero but dropping to 10% of rated capcity for 3 days is statistically to be expected.

Making the job harder: gas for water and heating is being phased out in the long run. Fuel for cars is moving t eectricity. Potential demand could easily double.


Those numbers are illustrative but they show the size of the problem of a renewables only backed by battery future. Now you could build 9 Hinckley C's for that money even assuming no scaling cost benefit. That's 28.8GW of always on reliable electricity. Half the nations demand. A nuke will last 50 years with maintenenace batteries, well your guess is as good as mine.
 
Soldato
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A GW is how fast you can go a GWh is how big the fuel tank is. 1.5GW of battery storage is meaningless with out the capacity. Battery storage is really good for grid load compensation on the second by second basis something that fossil power station do but a battery can do better. So batteries have been stealing one of the things fossil power stations were paid to provide and undermining the economic case for their continued operation. Which is a bad thing because we still need reliable generation so we have to pay them extra subsidies.

So keep the number easy. Winter peak is currently 60GW that's 60 million KW's. Imagine a renewables only future backed by batteries. So to last 3 days you need 3 days of 18 hours at 30 GW's and 6 hours at 60GW's [For illustrative easy numbers but not a million miles off].
So 18 times 3 = 54hours > 54 times 30 GW = 1,620GWh (1,620 million KWh's)
So 6 times 3 days = 18 hours > 18 times 60 GW = 10,80 GWh (1,080 million KWh's)

Total = 2,7 TWh or 2,700 GWh, or 2,700 million KWh's.

Assume we can build batteries for £100 KWh installed and connected price. A reasonable assumption in the long run.

£100 times 2,700,000,000 = £270Bn for 3 days storage.

Making the job easier: Plainly nukes will lower the demand up front and help with charging overnight if you build enough. £100 per KWh might be improved upon. Wind and solar is never truly zero but dropping to 10% of rated capcity for 3 days is statistically to be expected.

Making the job harder: gas for water and heating is being phased out in the long run. Fuel for cars is moving t eectricity. Potential demand could easily double.


Those numbers are illustrative but they show the size of the problem of a renewables only backed by battery future. Now you could build 9 Hinckley C's for that money even assuming no scaling cost benefit. That's 28.8GW of always on reliable electricity. Half the nations demand. A nuke will last 50 years with maintenenace batteries, well your guess is as good as mine.

I don’t disagree with your logic, those numbers only work if you assume there is ZERO generation in those 3 days. Even when the wind isn’t blowing particularly hard, it is still blowing something and turbines are still spinning, just slowly. Likewise we do have existing nuclear, solar, biomass and interconnects to Europe. No doubt we will also be using fossil fuels for decades with carbon offsetting (remember it’s net zero and not zero).

While I don’t disagree you would need a lot of storage to cover those typical three, three day periods a year when there isn’t much wind, we wouldn’t need anything like the amount needed to power the whole of the U.K. from storage alone.
 
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Batteries don't respond in second by second demand - like on ev's, you ideally need to pre-warming if you are going to pull a lot of current -
whereas the hydro are genuinely second response, from the earlier dinawig presentation.

Boris waxing lyrical on recycling - thought he speaking to the cabinet until they showed it was the local Naturist club - he knows his stuff though -
sounds like Prince Charles, too.
Recycling plastics does not work, says Boris Johnson
 
Caporegime
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I'm afraid after the gift from China and eighteen months of people wondering if they'll see their next birthday they aren't in the mood right now for turning the heating and lights off and putting on their thermals indoors.
We didn't die of Covid, so now let's shoot ourselves in both feet, to celebrate? I hope that's not how most people are feeling right now.
 
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You're obviously quite into the subject so any idea how much battery capacity we would need to store one day's worth of UK electricity consumption?
Aren't there any alternatives to batteries. Can't we pump water uphill, produce hydrogen from water, etc, etc, to store all that energy?
 
Soldato
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We didn't die of Covid, so now let's shoot ourselves in both feet, to celebrate? I hope that's not how most people are feeling right now.

Who is "we"? The Chinese gift is far from over giving, in case you hadn't noticed, and people tend to address the most pressing or imminent issues rather than something way beyond their lifetime. Go ask those stuck for hours in a jam caused by the protestors how their priorities lie. Curtailing population growth and migration is the answer, but the liberals can't bear to admit it.
 
Soldato
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Boris waxing lyrical on recycling - thought he speaking to the cabinet until they showed it was the local Naturist club - he knows his stuff though -
sounds like Prince Charles, too.
Recycling plastics does not work, says Boris Johnson

maybe Boris had a point - 1000 monkies and all that -
saw the end of panorama seemingly demonizing coca-cola as number one environmental plastic culprit - not ready to deploy the re-usable plastic bottle strategy they are iroinically deploying in Brazil, sounds as though they and their consumers should be ostracized - over to you Greta.
 
Caporegime
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Aren't there any alternatives to batteries. Can't we pump water uphill, produce hydrogen from water, etc, etc, to store all that energy?

Not really no, there's very few places it's possible and it produces a big risk foranyone down hill.

Producing hydrogen also doesn't scale well it leaks and is a hazard.

You can lift concrete blocks that's another idea into giant jenga tower but the efficency is low

China is trying compressed air some places are trying molten salt but all these ideas are difficult to maintain vs batteries.
 
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