So it somewhat complex, you've been blessed with a system that's taught you good values and they have a different approach but you admit that if you'd been brought up under their system you may act as they have done, so where does that leave everything. Luck of the draw?
Halifax grooming gang members lose sentence appeal.
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It's got nothing to do with luck of the draw. When I was a kid, although it was frowned upon, it was common for parents for give children a good hiding or couples to beat each other up and no action was taken. However sexual assault and paedophilia were always the worst of the worst offenders and criminal gangs acted in secret. You would need to go back to pre-1900 to find softening of attitudes towards sexual assault. That's because as a society we advanced and our acceptable behaviours are now so deeply ingrained that those offences would never be treated as minor .
My grandad told a story (backed up by my mum who saw it) that in 1950, as a 24 year old married man and war veteran, his neighbour had beaten up his wife. So my grandad went round and put him in the infirmary for 2 weeks. What do you think would have happened to a sex offender?
The culture of the grooming gangs is that their behaviour was acceptable and hushed up, with virtually the whole community knowing and not saying a word. And it is specifically that culture as I have Turkish Cypriots in my family and a close friend who is Libyan who is as disgusted as the I am with what happened
If what you are saying is that if they were born into a British Christian background would they have not committed these offences? I think it's highly likely that they wouldn't. But they weren't, they have a lifetime of ingrained beliefs about white women that will likely never change. And there do
My grandad told a story (backed up by my mum who saw it) that in 1950, as a 24 year old married man and war veteran, his neighbour had beaten up his wife. So my grandad went round and put him in the infirmary for 2 weeks. What do you think would have happened to a sex offender?
The culture of the grooming gangs is that their behaviour was acceptable and hushed up, with virtually the whole community knowing and not saying a word. And it is specifically that culture as I have Turkish Cypriots in my family and a close friend who is Libyan who is as disgusted as the I am with what happened
If what you are saying is that if they were born into a British Christian background would they have not committed these offences? I think it's highly likely that they wouldn't. But they weren't, they have a lifetime of ingrained beliefs about white women that will likely never change. And there do
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Soldato
So it is kind of luck of the draw then. I suppose we are becoming a sanctuary nation, trying to solve the worlds problems bit by bit by offering a welcoming hand to those from oppressed countries. Tricky stuff.
You say we've advanced, I suppose you could put it that way but really what happened is that New Labour came in and redesigned the landscape, economically, culturally and arguably morally, they largely did this by writing over 35,000 new laws. We are defined by our laws.
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Its luck in that a child has no choice who or wear he is born Into, but genetically some people would never commit offences despite their upbringing or parentage. Not every Pakistani male is a child rapist and most will have natural empathy which will prevent them wanting to harm others. However its a community that fostered these beliefs that allowed the worst to offend unhindered.
There was an interesting study on soldiers in WW1 that found most couldn't bring themselves to kill the enemy they were shooting at due to their natural personality traits.
What Labour introduced was a wholesale attack on free speech and criminalised thought. It didn't work and we are seeing the result now with political extremes. Immigration, multiculturalism etc are too complex to reduce down into any number of posts. But what's clear is that the most successful societies have been those who have welcomed immigration with emphasise on monoculture and assimilation. I'm no fan of New Labour but I grew up under the Tories and my overall memory is underinvestment and decaying public spaces.
There was an interesting study on soldiers in WW1 that found most couldn't bring themselves to kill the enemy they were shooting at due to their natural personality traits.
What Labour introduced was a wholesale attack on free speech and criminalised thought. It didn't work and we are seeing the result now with political extremes. Immigration, multiculturalism etc are too complex to reduce down into any number of posts. But what's clear is that the most successful societies have been those who have welcomed immigration with emphasise on monoculture and assimilation. I'm no fan of New Labour but I grew up under the Tories and my overall memory is underinvestment and decaying public spaces.
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I'd also say we are advanced as we, the society as a whole, have one of the most equal, free and tolerant countries on earth. Some would disagree but try going to Russia, Eastern Europe, Africa or the middle and the far East and try to get what you have as standard here.
I think the crux of your argument is nature vs nurture, but what we are now understanding is that criminality requires both
I think the crux of your argument is nature vs nurture, but what we are now understanding is that criminality requires both
Well were we equal and tolerant back in the 60's, 70's and 80's, I don't think so, a lot of racist and prejudice attitudes against Black and Irish people and women.
We are moulded by the laws set in place.
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Laws dont enforce beliefs, its increased education and understanding that comes from living with others. We had the race relations act in 1968 and racial discrimination act in 1975 that meant societally people could not be discriminated against. That didn't solve discrimination overnight and the laws were put in place by a general consensus across the country to implement them. Governments are put in power on the back of motions, bill's are then passed through the House of Lords.
Take the smoking ban, many opposed it, but it received general support. Laws in general are the response changes in society writ large, not the ideologies of a tiny few. Same with legalisation of homosexuality, the country was ready and willing to want that. Look across to Ireland for their recent same sex vote for example.
Take the smoking ban, many opposed it, but it received general support. Laws in general are the response changes in society writ large, not the ideologies of a tiny few. Same with legalisation of homosexuality, the country was ready and willing to want that. Look across to Ireland for their recent same sex vote for example.
Surgically.
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Without any kind of pain meds
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What's wrong with lynching when the victim is guilty of heinous sexual crimes against children?
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Ludicrous laxity in a French jail allows a terrorist's radical bint conjugal visiting rights and a search only by consent policy allows this woman to smuggle a ceramic knife in, used to seriously injure two guards. If this is how terrorists who have killed civilians are treated in jail I fully expect these lot to be allowed over night visits by school girls. What a carry on, it's supposed to be a high security prison, not a holiday camp with the inmates bonking their birds:
French prison guards blocked access to 18 prisons on Wednesday after an inmate in the north of the country wounded two guards in what the justice minister said was a terrorist attack.
Michaël Chiolo was apparently given a knife when his female partner visited a high-security jail in Normandy.
They barricaded themselves into a family-visiting area before police eventually moved in.
Unions called for action at all prisons over safety and staffing.
France has for years had to grapple with the spread of jihadism in its jail system.
The head of Condé-sur-Sarthe jail near Alençon, where the attack took place, was seen unsuccessfully appealing to protesting guards to be allowed in. Tyres were set on fire and when police arrived they were jeered as the guards stopped them getting through.
A hundred guards refused to let anyone into another high-security jail at Fleury-Mérogis, news channel BFMTV reported.
One guard, Cédric, told the Ouest France website that he had treated the two guards stabbed in the attack. "It was carnage, the ferocity of it. I'm thinking of my colleagues and I worry tomorrow that might be us."
At 09:45 on Tuesday, Michaël Chiolo, a 27-year-old inmate thought to have been radicalised in jail several years ago, was visited by his 34-year-old female partner in a special "family life" visiting unit. It was thought she had smuggled in a ceramic knife, Justice Minister Nicole Belloubet said.
Unconfirmed reports say the woman called for help from two guards and then the pair launched their attack, described by Ms Belloubet as a "terrorist" incident.
Both guards were seriously wounded, one with injuries to the thorax, the other to his face, colleagues said.
Chiolo shouted "Allahu Akhbar" (God is Greatest) and said he wanted to avenge the death of Strasbourg gunman Cherif Chekatt, Paris prosecutor Rémy Heitz said. Chekatt killed five people near the city's Christmas market last December.
After failed attempts at negotiation, elite police stormed the unit at 18:40.
Both were shot and wounded by police, and the woman died of her wounds when she "launched herself" on one of the officers.
Chiolo has been serving a 30-year sentence since 2015 and was reportedly radicalised as a militant Islamist while serving a previous jail term in 2012.
He came across the Strasbourg gunman while in jail in eastern France in 2015 and spent 175 days in the same penitentiary, Franceinfo reported.
Of Italian origin, he ran away from his family and became involved in petty crime.
Aged 20, he and an accomplice targeted an 89-year-old Holocaust survivor who escaped from Dachau concentration camp in Nazi Germany. They tied him up and choked him to death.
While in jail, he was sentenced to an extra year in prison for condoning terrorism. He had asked fellow inmates to "re-enact" the 2015 terror attack on the Bataclan music venue in Paris, which left 90 people dead.
French prison guards blocked access to 18 prisons on Wednesday after an inmate in the north of the country wounded two guards in what the justice minister said was a terrorist attack.
Michaël Chiolo was apparently given a knife when his female partner visited a high-security jail in Normandy.
They barricaded themselves into a family-visiting area before police eventually moved in.
Unions called for action at all prisons over safety and staffing.
France has for years had to grapple with the spread of jihadism in its jail system.
The head of Condé-sur-Sarthe jail near Alençon, where the attack took place, was seen unsuccessfully appealing to protesting guards to be allowed in. Tyres were set on fire and when police arrived they were jeered as the guards stopped them getting through.
A hundred guards refused to let anyone into another high-security jail at Fleury-Mérogis, news channel BFMTV reported.
One guard, Cédric, told the Ouest France website that he had treated the two guards stabbed in the attack. "It was carnage, the ferocity of it. I'm thinking of my colleagues and I worry tomorrow that might be us."
At 09:45 on Tuesday, Michaël Chiolo, a 27-year-old inmate thought to have been radicalised in jail several years ago, was visited by his 34-year-old female partner in a special "family life" visiting unit. It was thought she had smuggled in a ceramic knife, Justice Minister Nicole Belloubet said.
Unconfirmed reports say the woman called for help from two guards and then the pair launched their attack, described by Ms Belloubet as a "terrorist" incident.
Both guards were seriously wounded, one with injuries to the thorax, the other to his face, colleagues said.
Chiolo shouted "Allahu Akhbar" (God is Greatest) and said he wanted to avenge the death of Strasbourg gunman Cherif Chekatt, Paris prosecutor Rémy Heitz said. Chekatt killed five people near the city's Christmas market last December.
After failed attempts at negotiation, elite police stormed the unit at 18:40.
Both were shot and wounded by police, and the woman died of her wounds when she "launched herself" on one of the officers.
Chiolo has been serving a 30-year sentence since 2015 and was reportedly radicalised as a militant Islamist while serving a previous jail term in 2012.
He came across the Strasbourg gunman while in jail in eastern France in 2015 and spent 175 days in the same penitentiary, Franceinfo reported.
Of Italian origin, he ran away from his family and became involved in petty crime.
Aged 20, he and an accomplice targeted an 89-year-old Holocaust survivor who escaped from Dachau concentration camp in Nazi Germany. They tied him up and choked him to death.
While in jail, he was sentenced to an extra year in prison for condoning terrorism. He had asked fellow inmates to "re-enact" the 2015 terror attack on the Bataclan music venue in Paris, which left 90 people dead.
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You are either VERY old or you grew up in an "unusual" environment. I think that it is quite some time since violence has been considered acceptable in civilised, evolved society; certainly in the UK, the USA is different.
On what basis do you assert that the "grooming gangs" didn't know that their behaviour was considered to be entirely unacceptable by most people?Thecaferacer said:
Who do you maintain "hushed up" their entirely unacceptable behaviour?
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It certainly seemed to be acceptable amongst the Catholic clergy for many years and wasn't restricted to women, boys were more usually the target.
In part because the idea that sexual activity with a sexually mature and willing woman can be classified as rape is a very recent concept indeed even in the developed world, let alone anywhere else.
Relevent quote from link...
Lewis's marriage was controversial at the time, but not illegal, and certainly not considered in any way rape. And it is not that clear whether the controversy was more because of her age, or her blood relationship.
I was suprised to find out that incest is legal in many EU countries also. Just goes to reiterate my point that we are largely determined by the laws of the land. We are slaves to the law, tutored by the law, held captive and restrained by the law.