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Heat pumps

Discussion in 'Home and Garden' started by Uther, 19 Oct 2021.

  1. bloodiedathame

    Sgarrista

    Joined: 11 May 2007

    Posts: 8,441

    Location: Surrey

    Interesting you post this because you've almost validated my point.

    Your estimates range pretty wildly, neither the £9k system and the £18k system may be fit for purpose...

    As the poster I was responding to said, a badly designed system is going to be inefficient and expensive. My point was; when you're spending potentially £15k on a heat pump system, you want to be sure it's right for your situation. A typical boiler installation, whilst can be expensive, is a lot less money for far fewer problems (ignoring the carbon footprint elephant in the room).
     
  2. Puzzled

    Sgarrista

    Joined: 9 Jul 2003

    Posts: 8,541

    How many properly trained installers do we have in this country, can see a lot of cowboy companies being setup and installing poorly designed systems.
     
  3. Journey

    Capodecina

    Joined: 18 Oct 2002

    Posts: 10,857

    Location: West Midlands

    Given the extensive research I have completed, and not being a total numpty like some people are I can tell you that both systems quoted were easily fit for purpose, the difference being the brand of heat pump, water tank (and size) the type and style of radiators (not area), the additional pipe work I requested to position it where i wanted it. The biggest single difference is the labour cost, and profit margins added by the installers both of which I cannot control.

    Giving generic random figures to represent everyone is just silly as every single install is unique, what if I didn't need a new water tank, even if I change to another gas boiler I'd still need a new tank, or extensive re-work doing to convert to a proper combi system, so that £2k isn't £2k it's more like £4-5k. Making sense now?
     
  4. bloodiedathame

    Sgarrista

    Joined: 11 May 2007

    Posts: 8,441

    Location: Surrey

    I already gave you a figure of £5k when you said that £2k wasn't like for like. And we're still talking about 1/3 the cost, for a system that could end up being inefficient and costing more for the consumer than the gas equivalent. Yes, it's more environmentally friendly, but it feels like the government is only bothered about ticking that box.

    I think it's great that you're in a position to get a heat pump, and I'm not at all knocking them, I'm just concerned that what the government is doing is a knee-jerk reaction to COP and rising gas prices. It's probably going to cost us (the taxpayer) a huge amount of money (thanks to cowboy installers and chancers), and there will likely be many unfit-for-purpose systems installed as a result.

    I'd rather the government started giving out PV grants, with the aim to electrify every possible roof in the country instead. That should be step one, not this.
     
  5. Journey

    Capodecina

    Joined: 18 Oct 2002

    Posts: 10,857

    Location: West Midlands

    And I am not saying a Heat Pump is going to work for 'everyone' but lots of FUD makes people talk even more FUD about them rather than try and find out actual real facts for each circumstance that person may be in. I have a guy (gas engineer by trade) who lives down my street who was convinced that a heat pump would be no good for this style house (same as mine), but he was just regurgitating anecdotal stuff he had heard rather than doing the calculations and working it out for himself, he's excited to see how mine works out next year.

    No doubt as the costs fall over time they will become more appealing, as after all lets face it really it comes down to cost for a huge majority of people, and as such when there is less of a gap, be that a real gap or a huge fake one, then more people will find they work just fine.

    Also I've noticed a lot more recently that people are so afraid of change, afraid of trying to learn something new, of doing things differently, its quite scary how backwards people will be in the face of change, looking for any and every excuse to stick to the status quo and sometimes just bury their heads in the sand.
     
  6. Armageus

    Don

    Joined: 19 May 2012

    Posts: 13,362

    Location: Spalding, Lincolnshire

    There were at least a handful of installers in my area (Lincolnshire) all with good reviews, when I was looking to get my AHSP serviced at the beginning of the year
     
  7. bloodiedathame

    Sgarrista

    Joined: 11 May 2007

    Posts: 8,441

    Location: Surrey

    You're totally right on all accounts there. I'm genuinely looking at getting one myself but not sure where I'll be able to find the cash from. I'm just going to invest in thermal underwear for the time being. ;)
     
  8. Journey

    Capodecina

    Joined: 18 Oct 2002

    Posts: 10,857

    Location: West Midlands

    If I wasn't undertaking a long term project to totally revamp this property then it may a have been a different story, but as is we needed a total re-wire, every room needed plastering, most of the floors needed pulling up and either replacing or partial replacement, we already have a BEV, and I wanted solar anyhow and battery storage was a no brainer for that total UPS feel to the house, the boiler was/is on its last legs, and the radiators and hot water tank are almost knackered too. That doesn't include the fact that the previous owner did naff all to insulate it and the glazing was clearly done when double glazing was a 'new' thing and most of the units are totally shot.

    Oh, then I also have one, possible two extensions to do, with some fancy triple glazed bi-fold doors... anyone say mortgage for life? :p
     
  9. jpaul

    Capodecina

    Joined: 1 Mar 2010

    Posts: 16,024

    the heat-pump install example/interview Monday on r4pm was £15K versus gas upgrade £5k for similar houses,
    with just a combi boiler at the moment looks like you need a well insulated >200L tank for a couple of people 3K too, with heat pump itself
    thought this was interesting addressing heat pump hot water temperature for washing-up/showering ...

    yes I think there is an element of that - the ongoing running cost with 2020 versus current&future energy prices comes into play, in winter with reduced heat pumps efficiency too.
    How long will preferential EV type overnight electricity rates last with overnight use of heat pumps, the new nuclear plant will be green lit soon, delivery 2030 ?
     
  10. Blackjack Davy

    Soldato

    Joined: 16 Aug 2009

    Posts: 6,030

  11. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: 13 Oct 2006

    Posts: 79,319

    Just before we moved to where I'm living now, rural area, there was some kind of local scheme to get air and ground source heat pumps fitted (most places around here use oil fired). Not a single person who had one fitted has a positive thing to say about air source. Ground source people are generally a bit more positive about.
     
  12. Armageus

    Don

    Joined: 19 May 2012

    Posts: 13,362

    Location: Spalding, Lincolnshire


    Why would it need to be switched on? They work exactly the same as a gas boiler with a thermostat and time programmes, with mine you specifically have to put it in a "system off" mode if you don't want heating.
    More anti heat pump nonsense :mad:
     
  13. jpaul

    Capodecina

    Joined: 1 Mar 2010

    Posts: 16,024

    So John just alludes to high electricity costs ..
    there seem to be an absence of testimonials on the web for the UK ... but they are run of the mill in Denmark etc. still can't see any example running costs from them,
    must be a fait accompli there, if you don't have access to gas.
     
  14. 1pudding1

    Wise Guy

    Joined: 25 Jul 2003

    Posts: 1,007

    Location: Cornwall/Bristol

    Indeed. I have a GSHP in and underfloor for most of the house, and last year I built an extension, couldn't extend the existing heating in there so I fitted an air2air heat pump. Both work fine. You don't turn them completely off, you leave them on with a set back temp to fall back on if you're away for a long time. You don't use these in the same way as a boiler/rad setup. I think a lot of negative anecdotes come from people expecting the same old fashioned response to turning the heating on, and expect that withing 10/15mins to feel scorching hot rads or underfloor. That's not how these work, you leave them on and get a nice gentle background heat, and things and the whole house are then generally always warm.

    You dont turn them completely off, lets the whole house get cold, then turn them on expecting everything back up target temp in 15mins. Or if you do it costs a load of money as you're asking the heat pump to produce 50deg water, where it's not as efficient and cost effective to do so.

    Also, GSHP and ASHP are not that different, they both produce hot water just using different sources of heat. COP for ASHP are not that far off GSHP and save a lot of money in installation costs. Likelihood is that the GSHP's were better designed systems?
     
  15. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: 13 Oct 2006

    Posts: 79,319

    I don't know much about specifics like installation or usage approach - just know when we moved in a load of neighbours had taken up some scheme and the ones with air source were all very "don't do it" complaining of high costs and poor performance.

    Being rural most had oil fired boilers before so don't know if they are still trying to use the same approach as before but then the ones with ground source are all reasonably happy with them so I don't think it is just that.