Help me spec my cinema room

[RoyMi6]

Hey folks,

So in the next couple months I'm probably going to be sorting out my cinema room.

I'm thinking 130 inch 4K projector with 7.1.4 Atmos and a Buttkicker.

Currently have 1080p capable AV receiver/projector so needing to upgrade those but reusable equipment I've got is:

Screen
Fronts: B&W 684
Centre: B&W CC6 S2
Surrounds: Wharfedale DIAMOND 9.DFS

I've been quite happy with the look/sound of the Wharfedale DFS speakers so I was thinking of just picking up 4 more for Atmos ceiling speakers (the system will have to be semi removable so don't want to be drilling holes in ceiling for ceiling fitted speakers) and for rear surrounds I might even up using the same

I know they might not be the most amazing match to my front speakers but I've never had any real issue with them sounding "different". However, if there's any alternatives to the Wharfedales that have a similar low profile look happy to consider them.

I recently went to the IMAX and loved that low rumble so am keen to replicate that at home by not only adding a sub to the mix but getting a dedicated low frequency effect type device. I know buttkickers are a pain in the ass (ha!) to purchase in the UK so open to alternatives.

Quick question regarding them actually: I assume that most, if not all, AVRs sub outputs won't output frequencies as low as required for a buttkicker - so I take it I'm best ignoring getting an AVR with 2 sub outputs as I should just split off the single sub output and attach the buttkicker through a dedicated AMP/crossover? It does appear that most Atmos capable AVRs have two outputs but just wasn't 100% sure on best way to power the buttkicker.

On the subject of subs, I never had one in my flat but now we've got a detached house. Honestly, it's never been an issue for me. I'm not cracking the volume to the max but thinking since I'm going all out it would be nice to round the sound off and leave a little more room for the front speakers to do what they're designed to do.

Projector wise I'm looking for something that's going to really get the most from HDR content. Hard ask for a projector but I've always been happy with my 1080p projector (Sanyo PLV-Z800) picture in terms of sharpness so just want to make sure it's a step up from that in terms of capable contrast. Oh, and I can see DLP rainbowing - although this hasn't been too much of an issue on more recent projectors that my friends have got... so I don't know if they've just made the colour wheels faster these days?

Budget...
Projector (4K): £1.5K - preferably LCD (hoping to save money elsewhere but Epson TW7400 is current top contender)
AV Receiver (11 channel, min 5 HDMI inputs):£1K
Additional surround speakers (4 roof mounted, 2 surround/rear) £1K
Sub: £300 £600 (Edit: looks like a BK Monolith is on the cards)
Buttkicker & AMP: £500

Happy to shuffle those prices around where needed.

Like, unless someone convinced me otherwise I'd be quite happy picking up 6xWharfedale DFS speakers for £150, so that leaves a lot more room for the projector

As you might have well guessed, I'm not a massive audiophile. I genuinely feel that the immersion you get from a massive screen combined with "capable" sound that doesn't distort, lets you hear people talk but at the same time can fill the room with "sound" when the action happens can be had for not much money (only spent £2K on my previous setup and ideally that's what I would spend again) but I would appreciate advice on where things can be matched well and generally just what good value for money kit is available at the moment.

Thanks in advance guys!
Roy

 

[200sols]

I dont know about the projectors, but your sub budget is lacking. Dedicated room, I would be looking at dual subs and decent ones at that. Think BK Monolith+ but those will set you back around £600 each. Start with 1, B grade on ebay for £500~

Receiver wise, look at the outgoing Marantz SR7012, you wont find better for £850 new IMO.

 

[RoyMi6]

I dont know about the projectors, but your sub budget is lacking. Dedicated room, I would be looking at dual subs and decent ones at that. Think BK Monolith+ but those will set you back around £600 each. Start with 1, B grade on ebay for £500~

Receiver wise, look at the outgoing Marantz SR7012, you wont find better for £850 new IMO.

So, max budget is probably £4K and sub is likely going to be last thing I buy - because I've lived for 5 years without one.

So every penny saved in other areas can go towards that, as well as the fact that I'll obviously be able to save a little more over time.

I definitely won't be buying two, but if £600 is the minimum you'd recommend for a sub I'll take that on board and save towards it.

Also yes, B grade/second hand is defo an option. Even though I've got some money towards this I think realistically I'll be buying most, if not all, second hand to save even more money to allow for amazing projector

 

[james.miller]

How big is the room? you mention buttkicker (singular) so im assuming it's not enormous? I cant see the need for two big subs if you are designing a room around one chair tbh.

 

[RoyMi6]

How big is the room? you mention buttkicker (singular) so im assuming it's not enormous? I cant see the need for two big subs if you are designing a room around one chair tbh.

So the room itself is 4m x 5m with 3m tall ceilings - but just one three seater sofa.

Just me and the misses so thinking of having the buttkicker on one side so that my side moves more but for her it's less noticeable.

I also think the double sub just isn't going to be an issue with the buttkicker and the fact I will be able to get the sub itself in a corner near the sofa.

 

[MrRockliffe]

With the amount you're spending on an AVR and a buttkicker, I would absolutely be spending more than £300 on a sub!

Projectors, other than higher end laser based ones, struggle with HDR content, so I wouldn't be looking at one with the focus on it being great for contrast - especially LCD based ones. AVForums recently reviewed the new Epson TW7400 and gave it a Best Buy award for circa £1800

 

[200sols]

I think if this is a dedicated movie room the sub will have a lot more effect on the sound and overall immersion than you think! Dual subs are always better than one, and positioning the sub in a corner may not be the best place either. Ultimately you will have to test and place the sub accordingly. That said, a single Monolith+ would still be awesome.

 

[RoyMi6]

Receiver wise, look at the outgoing Marantz SR7012, you wont find better for £850 new IMO.

Had a look at this but it's only 9.2 - I'd need another amp to get full 11.2 and would prefer an all in one unless there's a compelling reason to still got for this?

With the amount you're spending on an AVR and a buttkicker, I would absolutely be spending more than £300 on a sub!

Projectors, other than higher end laser based ones, struggle with HDR content, so I wouldn't be looking at one with the focus on it being great for contrast - especially LCD based ones. AVForums recently reviewed the new Epson TW7400 and gave it a Best Buy award for circa £1800

Budget upped to £600 - still likely to be my last purchase

Ok, that Epson does look good. As an aside the 93% lens shift will be brilliant given the height of my room so this looks like it could be a winner.

I think if this is a dedicated movie room the sub will have a lot more effect on the sound and overall immersion than you think! Dual subs are always better than one, and positioning the sub in a corner may not be the best place either. Ultimately you will have to test and place the sub accordingly. That said, a single Monolith+ would still be awesome.

Yeah, absolutely, will be a bit of trial and error when it comes to it. I'm even planning on strategically placed sound deadening panels if required.

 

[200sols]

Had a look at this but it's only 9.2 - I'd need another amp to get full 11.2 and would prefer an all in one unless there's a compelling reason to still got for this?

Price really, its very similar to this years model which is £1400. Having a quick look, new 11.2 receivers are substantially more than your budget however.

A used Denon x6300H or x6400h may be a good option, Peter Tyson have some open box ones around your budget.

 

[RoyMi6]

Price really, its very similar to this years model which is £1400. Having a quick look, 11.2 receivers are substantially more than your budget however.

Am I missing something on this Denon AVRX4500H? https://www.richersounds.com/denon-avrx4500-black.html

Appears to tick all the boxes?

 

[200sols]

Am I missing something on this Denon AVRX4500H? https://www.richersounds.com/denon-avrx4500-black.html

Appears to tick all the boxes?

According to the Denon website its a 'Premium 9.2 channel' so I didnt even consider it

 

[RoyMi6]

According to the Denon website its a 'Premium 9.2 channel' so I didnt even consider it

Ahhhh you're right - it's got all the outputs but can only run 9 channels at once. So you get a choice of 7.2.2 or 5.2.4

 

[200sols]

Ahhhh you're right - it's got all the outputs but can only run 9 channels at once. So you get a choice of 7.2.2 or 5.2.4

https://petertyson.co.uk/open-box-denon-avr-x6400h-av-receiver-silver-ref-624258 will be about the cheapest I can see? 5 year warranty as well but silver not black colour.

 

[RoyMi6]

https://petertyson.co.uk/open-box-denon-avr-x6400h-av-receiver-silver-ref-624258 will be about the cheapest I can see? 5 year warranty as well but silver not black colour.

Nice find! Thank you for that!

 

[-Ad-]

Get X2 subs, rather than wasting money on Atmos and other surround speakers.

A well setup 5.2 will be better than just sticking in speakers everywhere. But instead just put extra wires in place for the additional surround and ceiling speakers and cut through in the future.

Consider room treatment panels but also ensure the AVR has decent digital room correction built in. But don't be wooo'd by these AVRs promising 940 channels and built in amplification. The more channels you use, the less power they will all have.

For a decent deal get a power amp and separate processor. The IOTA kit from Hifipilot is good, I'm running X2 of the older Nakamichi 7channel amps and the 5.1 Nak Processor.

Oh and what colour is the room going to be and is it a dedicated room?

 

[RoyMi6]

Get X2 subs, rather than wasting money on Atmos and other surround speakers.

A well setup 5.2 will be better than just sticking in speakers everywhere. But instead just put extra wires in place for the additional surround and ceiling speakers and cut through in the future.

Consider room treatment panels but also ensure the AVR has decent digital room correction built in. But don't be wooo'd by these AVRs promising 940 channels and built in amplification. The more channels you use, the less power they will all have.

For a decent deal get a power amp and separate processor. The IOTA kit from Hifipilot is good, I'm running X2 of the older Nakamichi 7channel amps and the 5.1 Nak Processor.

Oh and what colour is the room going to be and is it a dedicated room?

Running trunking and having cables in place before actual installing the speakers is something I was planning on doing - especially when it comes to the atmos speakers because realistically they'll likely come later on.

Obviously it doesn't help anyone to say "hey, I've got a unlimited budget and unlimited timeframe to install a home theatre" because people need SOME numbers to work with and even though I likely will put off buying some components for over 12 months I just want to get an idea in my head of what I'm aiming for.

However, I am interested in reading more about separates...

I've only ever used all in one AVRs will built in amplifiers so I don't even know what to look for, or where to look for, separate processors and amps.

I know ultimately I'd like 7.2.4 so in my mind I should buy a processor that's capable for that in the first instance (because otherwise I'll be paying for something twice) but if there's any way that 7.2.4 sound can be had for under £2K (budget increases because it will be upgraded over time) then I'm interested in looking into it more.

For example, why are you running a 5.1 processor with 2 x 7 channel amps? Surely you can run all 6 channels off one amp, or is this purely so you're giving yourself more head room on each amp?

I don't see any 11.2 channel capable processors on Hifipilot so what should I be searching for to get that?

Room is likely going to be a dark blue. I'm musing with the possibility of actually running black velvet pleated curtains around the entire room

EDIT:

Just had an absolute epiphany!

Sorry, I'm new to looking into separates at all. It's just something I never thought I'd need but I do appreciate they might make things more scalable.

However, there does appear to be premium attached with this that appears to be pushing things beyond what I'd like to spend - especially for my 11.2 capable processor.

But... I now suddenly understand what pre-outs are for!

I never got it before, but I understand now that a 11.2 channel AVR with 7.2 channels of powered output isn't something totally pointless, it's something I can expand at a later date with a dedicated amp to support my 3 channel in the front and use the built in amplifier of the AVR to power my surrounds at ATMOS speakers.

So... that opens up a bunch of new posabilities.

Thanks @-Ad-. I'm still interested to know if you have anything that fits the bill cost/performance wise though

 

[hornetstinger]

As for main speakers and bass for music sure use a lower crossover or even pure mode but for home cinema I'd use a higher crossover and let sub manage bass frequencies. Especially if using a avenue as usually they have low power outputs.

I use 60hz for main speakers, they're big floorstanders for 32hz low end

£300 budget isn't even worth bothering with. I'd say £600 minimum, or more depending on what you expect and room size.

Something Ike bk monotlith plus, or svs SB on or pc series.

I'd rather go higher end 7.1 than cheaper full atmos. I've got a pre-power separates 7.1 with 200w per channel RMS (true RMS not avr power)

 

[hornetstinger]

If I were you I'd get less stuff but get better quality per item is rather than getting a sub and a buttkicket and the amp to go with it, just buy a better sub

 

[-Ad-]

Hey.

Yeah there's a lot of ways to skin a cat when building a cinema. I like having the Processor/Amp split as you can keep an amp for many years then upgrade the processor when new formats come out or times change. Plus the amplification in AVRs is crap in comparison to dedicated amps. Their specs are quoted as 1/2 channels driven, at 6ohm rather than 8ohm at a high THD and generally just very misleading. For example, these AVRs with 9/11 channels of amplification will actually only put out 50-60 per channel if you're lucky.

Ok, so you have a 5m x 4m room with 3m ceilings.

Speakers
Can't offer much help here as I don't like lots of channels. But I will be wiring up for ATMOS when the room above the lounge is ripped apart. As they are just effect speakers, I wouldn't want horrible square things on the ceiling so would only ever consider in ceilings. Have a good read on Avforums for better advice.

But my ethos is always, put the money where you need to, rather than just buying eleventy twenty more speakers!


Subwoofer
Put simply, scrap the buttkickers and invest in the most powerful sub you can, or get 2 subs. I have a ~6m x 4.5m room (2.5m ceilings) and the monolith struggled to pressurise the room, that's with lots of tweaking and positioning it in the corners to get the most out of it. I'm now running a pair of XTZ 1x12 Cinema subs, which have 12" drivers and a 500W RMS amp in each (1kW peak). These actually work in the size of room as the monolith was critically underpowered for the space.

By scrapping the buttkickers you could have a sub budget of £600-1000. I'd seriously consider one larger sub and would probably put my money towards an Arendal. Well reviewed on Avforums and they are a sponsor on there. Their 13.8" Sub 1 or Sub 1.5 (better amp) would do a good job in your room.

As a note, if I only use one of my 500W subs, it still does a great job in the room. For demo material I highly recommend watching 'The Expanse', especially the new season 3 that Amazon have take on and invested heavily in. Think Game of Thrones in space if you haven't watched it already.

https://www.arendalsound.eu/collections/1723-series


AVR etc

However, I am interested in reading more about separates...

I've only ever used all in one AVRs will built in amplifiers so I don't even know what to look for, or where to look for, separate processors and amps.

I know ultimately I'd like 7.2.4 so in my mind I should buy a processor that's capable for that in the first instance (because otherwise I'll be paying for something twice) but if there's any way that 7.2.4 sound can be had for under £2K (budget increases because it will be upgraded over time) then I'm interested in looking into it more.

For example, why are you running a 5.1 processor with 2 x 7 channel amps? Surely you can run all 6 channels off one amp, or is this purely so you're giving yourself more head room on each amp?

I don't see any 11.2 channel capable processors on Hifipilot so what should I be searching for to get that?

Room is likely going to be a dark blue. I'm musing with the possibility of actually running black velvet pleated curtains around the entire room

Ok, for your case then I'd go with the recommendations of 200sols on something like the Marantz SR7012. Some AVRs can get very expensive (1.5-2k) for an 11.2 one and that just like a bit of a waste of money.

It will then act as a hybrid Processor/surround AVR. As it only has 9 channels of amplification then you can start a foray into separate power amps. As your Front L/R & centre will be the most demanding, spend the money on a power amp for these and connect to the pre-outs of the Marantz AVR. Then let the Marantz internal amps (crap low power things) do everything else like the surrounds and height speakers. You're then focusing the amplification on your fronts which matter most!

A combo of an £800 Marantz and £400-600 3/5 channel power amp will smash any all in one 11 channel AVR this side of £2-3k. Again, look on Avforums for power amp advice and seriously consider getting a second hand power amp. Ensure it has a 12v trigger, which can connect to the AVR trigger output, so the AVR will then control the power amp on/off. Have a look at the Emotiva offerings or second hand on AVF:

https://www.avforums.com/forums/receiver-amplifier-classifieds.153/

I'm running x2 7ch amps as my ATC front speakers are power hungry inefficient things. So one of them is powering only the Front L/R and the other is powering the Centre and x2 MK surrounds. As much as I'd like a one box solution, those x2 Nakamichi amps cost me £200 each The matching Nakamichi Processor was also £200....... The word Bargain doesn't quite cover it and they comfortably power the speakers up to reference levels without breaking a sweat.

Although I could sell them for a lot more than I paid for them and upgrade to a lovely NORD 5channel amplifer, which would put out either 250W or 500W a channel depending on the configuration. But then again this can be configured for number of channels and amplification power for your chosen channels. E.g. 500W cards for front speakers and 125W for surrounds.

https://www.nordacoustics.co.uk/nord-one-hypex-mp-multichannel

But... I now suddenly understand what pre-outs are for!

I never got it before, but I understand now that a 11.2 channel AVR with 7.2 channels of powered output isn't something totally pointless, it's something I can expand at a later date with a dedicated amp to support my 3 channel in the front and use the built in amplifier of the AVR to power my surrounds at ATMOS speakers.

So... that opens up a bunch of new posabilities.

BOOO YA!!!!!


So to take into account my ramblings above: Budget...
Projector (4K): £1.5K - Epson TW7400 should do nicely
AV Receiver: £800 - Marantz SR7012
Power Amp: £400ish (find one secondhand if possible)
Additional surround speakers (4 roof mounted, 2 surround/rear) £1K - Reduce this if possible and consider in ceilings.
Sub: £800 Arendal Sub 1 or £600 Monolith DF+

Only thing not considered is a screen. Oh and your cabling, just buy 2.5mm Van Damme or Meridian Sommer Cable (for fronts) and 1.5mm varients of the same for everything else. Good value cable and easy to bend about. No need to waste money on stupid snake oil rubbish.

 

[hornetstinger]

I've got some surround speakers available.