Homophobic attack on two women on London bus.

[Psycho Sonny]

It's insane.

Imagine it - you're on the end of a tirade of homophobic abuse, people are throwing coins at you, demanding you do god-knows-what. The default response is that you must sit on your hands, look straight ahead, close your eyes and pray to god that nothing bad will happen. Meanwhile, you're robbed, beaten and publicly humiliated.

Any attempt to confront this assault, stop it, or fight back - is viewed as wrong, because you're making the situation worse by antagonising the assailants even more, you should sit and accept what's happening to you. Furthermore, if you do dare try to 'take on' the attackers, you'll basically be written off as just going after some fame, or trying to force your LGBT agenda on everyone else.

Mental.

No what is mental is I've said multiple times they should have gotten off and just got on the next bus.

To antagonise 5 people when you only have 2 is retarded would you not agree?
To do that when you are female and they are male would be Tony Williams retarded would you not agree?

I mean fare enough if some guy harasses you and it's 5 v 2 in your favour I would go to town on them. But the other way around it's best you just get off the bus. If they follow you go into a crowded shop.

I take it you have never had a knife pulled out on you? Because if you had you would know it's best not to antagonise said person with knife.

Mental.

 

[elmarko]

I think in all seriousness that the fact they were Lesbians definitely was an incitement for the incident to happen, but equally the incident could've happened for any other arbitrary reason that the idiots decided at the time. They might have decided that a guy was wearing a wrong type of hat, or a girl had the wrong colour hair, etc; they probably don't hate people who are gay or lesbian, that would actually be giving them some credit in that they think that far ahead, it just happened to be the the thing that was different about them that gave them an excuse. I understand that it will no doubt be classed as a hate crime, but there was probably also someone stabbed to death that night for a different arbitrary reason like they live in the wrong post code, yet this incident is given precedent in the media because the victims happen to be gay. That's my issue with this story.

Tbh growing up a very rough council estate in central Birmingham I have to agree with much of the above. (In a sense that I've witnessed directly this kind of random chav/thug attacks around me many times)

The mindless thugs who did this are not likely to be people with homophobic views, I highly doubt these idiots went out with the intention to 'bash some gays' - but instead went out looking to cause trouble & have picked any group they deemed to be a 'fair target'. They could have been goths, redheads, wrong football team, dressed strangely or anything else.

Logically I'd have expected for something to classify as a hate crime it would be something more like the below,

1. Bunch of EDL thugs look for a Muslim to attack.
2. A group of far-right fundamentalist Muslims look for a gay person to attack.

While I agree we need to protect singled out groups, I think in some cases of random violence like this only certain types of singling out are considered protected (when say a scruffy looking oddly dressed man would have been just as likely to be a target for simply being odd) - just as vulnerable.

 

[Roar87]

It's insane.

Imagine it - you're on the end of a tirade of homophobic abuse, people are throwing coins at you, demanding you do god-knows-what. The default response is that you must sit on your hands, look straight ahead, close your eyes and pray to god that nothing bad will happen. Meanwhile, you're robbed, beaten and publicly humiliated.

Any attempt to confront this assault, stop it, or fight back - is viewed as wrong, because you're making the situation worse by antagonising the assailants even more, you should sit and accept what's happening to you. Furthermore, if you do dare try to 'take on' the attackers, you'll basically be written off as just going after some fame, or trying to force your LGBT agenda on everyone else.

Mental.

I had a guy come up to me at a Starbucks in Birmingham claiming my girlfriend at the time looked at him funny, now I was in pretty good shape and would've normally laughed in this skinny chavs face, except for the fact he was very strongly implying he had a knife down his pants. So I sat there and didn't escalate at all. I had in my head what I would've done if I needed to, which would've been grab a chair and wrap it round his head, but I didn't raise my voice or rise to him at all. In the end he left and I didn't get stabbed. Crazy concept I know.

 

[Efour]

Why is this even a debate? Its a homophobic attack...end of story.

Or not, just the beginning...

 

[Screeeech]

No what is mental is I've said multiple times they should have gotten off and just got on the next bus.

To antagonise 5 people when you only have 2 is retarded would you not agree?
To do that when you are female and they are male would be Tony Williams retarded would you not agree?

Maybe they should have, but they didn't did they?

Maybe they should have crumbled up like wet paper bags, sat there and took it, but they didn't did they?

Maybe they'd spent half their lives being glared at, having insults thrown at them, being pointed at, being called 'weird', being laughed at, being called 'bean-flickers, carpet munchers, Dykes, muff divers' and so on?

Maybe a group of kids throwing coins at them, hurling homophobic abuse at them was the last straw on the camels back?

I take it you have never had a knife pulled out on you? Because if you had you would know it's best not to antagonise said person with knife.

You know absolutely nothing about me, so stop claiming you know what I would or wouldn't do in any situation, because you have no idea.

 

[Psycho Sonny]

I had a guy come up to me at a Starbucks in Birmingham claiming my girlfriend at the time looked at him funny, now I was in pretty good shape and would've normally laughed in this skinny chavs face, except for the fact he was very strongly implying he had a knife down his pants. So I sat there and didn't escalate at all. I had in my head what I would've done if I needed to, which would've been grab a chair and wrap it round his head, but I didn't raise my voice or rise to him at all. In the end he left and I didn't get stabbed. Crazy concept I know.

Well handled. You don't know if he did or not. If he did and lets say he managed to catch you off guard it's just not worth the risk. Anyone implying that you should have antagonised him would be in the wrong IMO.

I don't know for sure but I would say it's obvious they likely said something to upset the gang harassing them. I'm not saying they were in the wrong for doing so just that I imagine the whole thing could have been avoided by simply leaving the bus.

But it looks like we have chuck norris on these forums. Who would have got his nunchucks out and did a 360 no scope to their domes.

 

[Zatoichi.uK]

There are few things more dangerous than a teenager that's lost face in front of his friends. I largely agree with Sonny that it's sometimes foolish to put yourself in a situation that could have been avoided. It's a difficult situation as generally we need to face confrontation and stand up for ourselves. These can and do go wrong, sometimes in horrific ways. All you can do is make a call at the time and hope it's the right one.

I hope these little scrotes face the full extent of the law.

 

[BowdonUK]

I don't know for sure but I would say it's obvious they likely said something to upset the gang harassing them. I'm not saying they were in the wrong for doing so just that I imagine the whole thing could have been avoided by simply leaving the bus.

I thought something like that when she said next minute her friend was in the middle of the group fighting them. I got the impression she skipped something out. From her post about the incident they start rambling on about "misogynistic men" in general. So I can easily imagine this group's antics would have riled them up also.

Though like you said, they would have been better not engaging them at all as usually an aggressor is looking for something to latch on to and justify escalating a situation.

I don't think some people are aware of a dangerous situation these days.

 

[Screeeech]

I thought something like that when she said next minute her friend was in the middle of the group fighting them. I got the impression she skipped something out. From her post about the incident they start rambling on about "misogynistic men" in general. So I can easily imagine this group's antics would have riled them up also.
.

GD is absolutely hilarious, I can't stop laughing.


Two lesbians on a date, get beaten up on a bus, because one of them decides to confront a group of kids (we have no idea why, but that's what happened), who've been yelling abuse at them, and throwing coins at them. And then you have a go at them for daring to 'ramble on about misogynistic men' as though it's somehow the fault of the women, for having the sheer bloody-minded audacity to get 'riled up' because a gang of chavs were doing all of the above to them, whilst they're minding their own business out on a date.

 

[Psycho Sonny]

I thought something like that when she said next minute her friend was in the middle of the group fighting them. I got the impression she skipped something out. From her post about the incident they start rambling on about "misogynistic men" in general. So I can easily imagine this group's antics would have riled them up also.

Though like you said, they would have been better not engaging them at all as usually an aggressor is looking for something to latch on to and justify escalating a situation.

I don't think some people are aware of a dangerous situation these days.

I got that impression too. It suddenly went from them being seated then she was in the aisle in the middle of the group and the other one tried to step in to stop it and got told to do one with a whack. The other one got the worst of the beating too (the one in the aisle) and the one who tried to step in got what looks like a single whack. it doesn't take sherlock holmes to link this all together.

it's pretty obvious something happened in between. i didn't hear her say her other half got dragged from her seat so it's obvious she got up likely to antagonise and then it went south quickly. but that was all skipped out.

but it looks like some people can't read between the lines.

 

[Roar87]

GD is absolutely hilarious, I can't stop laughing.


Two lesbians on a date, get beaten up on a bus, because one of them decides to confront a group of kids (we have no idea why, but that's what happened), who've been yelling abuse at them, and throwing coins at them. And then you have a go at them for daring to 'ramble on about misogynistic men' as though it's somehow the fault of the women, for having the sheer bloody-minded audacity to get 'riled up' because a gang of chavs were doing all of the above to them, whilst they're minding their own business out on a date.

No one has had a go at them, they've simply said that it's better to walk away from situations like that, I even illustrated a time when I had to swallow my pride and do that exact thing. It's called living in the real world.

 

[BowdonUK]

GD is absolutely hilarious, I can't stop laughing.

Two lesbians on a date, get beaten up on a bus, because one of them decides to confront a group of kids (we have no idea why, but that's what happened), who've been yelling abuse at them, and throwing coins at them. And then you have a go at them for daring to 'ramble on about misogynistic men' as though it's somehow the fault of the women, for having the sheer bloody-minded audacity to get 'riled up' because a gang of chavs were doing all of the above to them, whilst they're minding their own business out on a date.

I'm not blaming them. I was commenting on their post afterwards as a possible indication what might have happened. If I got beat up by a gang of drunk women I'm not going to make a general statement about all women, unless I had some previous axe to grind. They shouldn't have been harassed, nobody should be. But it can happen, and the best thing to do is try and de-escalate the situation even if you feel angry inside.

I once was robbed of some money when I was younger. I was waiting in my car until it was time to meet some friends at a bar and it was a hot day, so I had the door open. I was drinking a pepsi and had to put it down in the footwell. When I sat back up and looked around a guy was standing inside the opened door, so I couldnt close it. I was sat down so if I had started a fight I would have been in a weak position. Luckily I managed to engage him in some psychological warfare and only lost some of my money (and kept my car). I didn't go blaming men in general for that incident. All I wanted to do was get out of the situation unhurt and with my car, which I did.

As i said in the last post. A lot of people these days don't seem to realise they are in a dangerous situation, sadly especially women. If you have a look at some videos on youtube some women don't know when to stop and end up getting hit. I'm not blaming them for getting hit. But they should know when to stop escalating it. If I was getting mouthy to a bigger muscler guy than me then I should be expect that there is a high possibility he might hit me.

 

[Screeeech]

I'm not blaming them. I was commenting on their post afterwards as a possible indication what might have happened. If I got beat up by a gang of drunk women I'm not going to make a general statement about all women, unless I had some previous axe to grind. They shouldn't have been harassed, nobody should be. But it can happen, and the best thing to do is try and de-escalate the situation even if you feel angry inside.

Go on then Einstein, explain to me how you're going to de-escalate a situation where a gang of kids are hurling homophobic abuse and coins at you? Walk towards them in a nice calming fashion and ask them politely to "please stop doing that"?

Are you unable to see anything from any other perspective other than your own? Are you unable to comprehend that *perhaps* just maybe, the girls on the bus were so fed up to the back teeth that they may have gotten just a little bit angry, just a little bit? Do you not think that if that's the case, in response to what was going on, perhaps we could consider cutting them a little slack here?

You're talking as though in response to a tirade of abuse, you're supposed to calmly run through a script of actions like Robocop, and calmly fix everything - in a situation where carnage was about to occur.

Ridiculous.

 

[omnomnom]

I'm not blaming them. I was commenting on their post afterwards as a possible indication what might have happened. If I got beat up by a gang of drunk women I'm not going to make a general statement about all women, unless I had some previous axe to grind.

Judging by some comments on here the two girls have a point tbh.

 

[Efour]

No CCTV leak yet? Clear all this fun up, nice and easy.

 

[Schlong&Stable]

A relatively minor incident (in the grand scheme of things) that only gained traction in the media because the victims had abnormal sexual preferences common amongst media sorts. I guarantee if the victims were furry's or vore enthusiasts, it wouldn't have made a headline outside of some local rag.

The whole concept of a "hate crime" is absurd and has no place in a society which considers all equal before the law. Gay, furry, vore lover or whatever else: we're either all equal or we're not.

 

[Psycho Sonny]

Go on then Einstein, explain to me how you're going to de-escalate a situation where a gang of kids are hurling homophobic abuse and coins at you? Walk towards them in a nice calming fashion and ask them politely to "please stop doing that"?

Are you unable to see anything from any other perspective other than your own? Are you unable to comprehend that *perhaps* just maybe, the girls on the bus were so fed up to the back teeth that they may have gotten just a little bit angry, just a little bit? Do you not think that if that's the case, in response to what was going on, perhaps we could consider cutting them a little slack here?

You're talking as though in response to a tirade of abuse, you're supposed to calmly run through a script of actions like Robocop, and calmly fix everything - in a situation where carnage was about to occur.

Ridiculous.

Yes I can see them getting angry.

How is it that you cannot see they should have simply just got of the bus and got on the next one? Yes I know they shouldn't have to. But if the option is get your head caved in or get on the next bus I know what most normal people would choose. Why are you still advocating they should have stood up? You seem to be advocating that people should be willingly engaging these morons and getting their heads caved in so they can then wait in A&E for 3 days to be treated because it's the right thing to do.

Okay I'll let you in on something, 1 on 1; I likely would have engaged them if they were out of order (which they likely were). 5 on 1 then no chance. But I am male, 6 foot, squat 200kg, etc, etc. However I'm not Steven Seagal and I can't take out 5 guys armed with knives, etc.

I don't care how angry you are. You assess the situation. There is 5 of them and you are 2 females. They likely assumed that was their golden shield. They wouldn't dare hit a woman. How do you think that worked out?

So your saying everyone should engage their attacker in a confrontational situation and fight til their last breath? Rather than actively try to avoid it even when outnumbered more than 2 to 1? Do you advocate that also when they are carrying weapons? What if the weapon is a glass bottle? WOuld you take that on but not a knife? Where do you draw the line is what I want to know on who to engage and who not to engage? What if it's 10 of them? 20 of them? I take it you would still engage? Okay how about 300 of them?

I take it your a Millwall fan and have it large at every weekend? Back in the real world. The sane people are avoiding the morons because we all know 1 day they will engage the wrong person and guess what, they will be the ones in A&E or the morgue.

They shouldn't have said anything to them, not looked at them and just got of the bus and onto the next one. It's really that simple.

 

[BowdonUK]

You're talking as though in response to a tirade of abuse, you're supposed to calmly run through a script of actions like Robocop, and calmly fix everything - in a situation where carnage was about to occur.

That's exactly what you should do, unless you know for sure that if 'carnage' happens you can defend yourself.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. I'm not justifying the actions of these thugs, but the best chance of de-escalating a situation like this is not to respond to them. I mean damn, its not like its even 1 on 1. It was 5 vs 2. If carnage happens, even if its 2 guys the odds on the 2 guys getting beaten up is high too. So the objective is to avoid carnage.

I've never blamed them for getting beaten up. We're just discussing what might have happened.

 

[Screeeech]

Yes I can see them getting angry.

How is it that you cannot see they should have simply just got of the bus and got on the next one? Yes I know they shouldn't have to. But if the option is get your head caved in or get on the next bus I know what most normal people would choose. Why are you still advocating they should have stood up? You seem to be advocating that people should be willingly engaging these morons and getting their heads caved in so they can then wait in A&E for 3 days to be treated because it's the right thing to do.

Okay I'll let you in on something, 1 on 1; I likely would have engaged them if they were out of order (which they likely were). 5 on 1 then no chance. But I am male, 6 foot, squat 200kg, etc, etc. However I'm not Steven Seagal and I can't take out 5 guys armed with knives, etc.

I don't care how angry you are. You assess the situation. There is 5 of them and you are 2 females. They likely assumed that was their golden shield. They wouldn't dare hit a woman. How do you think that worked out?

So your saying everyone should engage their attacker in a confrontational situation and fight til their last breath? Rather than actively try to avoid it even when outnumbered more than 2 to 1? Do you advocate that also when they are carrying weapons? What if the weapon is a glass bottle? WOuld you take that on but not a knife? Where do you draw the line is what I want to know on who to engage and who not to engage? What if it's 10 of them? 20 of them? I take it you would still engage? Okay how about 300 of them?

I take it your a Millwall fan and have it large at every weekend? Back in the real world. The sane people are avoiding the morons because we all know 1 day they will engage the wrong person and guess what, they will be the ones in A&E or the morgue.

They shouldn't have said anything to them, not looked at them and just got of the bus and onto the next one. It's really that simple.

Of course in a perfect world, where everybody behaves like robots - they should have just gotten off the bus, caught the next one and forgotten about it, but we're not robots, and we don't live in a perfect world do we?


I want you to imagine a situation.

Suppose every other day for the last year, you've had some sort of abuse thrown at you, dirty looks, blokes shouting 'get your pasty out' people being horrible all the time, on the bus, in the street, in the shops, at the gym, on the internet - everywhere.

Suppose that you get on that bus and those kids start throwing coins and asking you to strip off (or whatever they were asking)

Has it dawned on you, even for a minute, that maybe - just maybe they'd had enough? Amid all your embarrassing probably-false internet tough-talk, have you stopped to think about what makes people angry and how unpredictably they behave when they get angry? Because once you stop to think about that, then that might change your outlook on situations like this quite considerably.

Everybody has a limit, a fuse - it's different lengths for different people, but some people get to the point where they can't take it anymore and it doesn't matter if there are 5x blokes or 50x blokes - they'll lose their temper, and do something that will end up in them getting hurt, because that's how human beings behave when they get upset.

If that's what happened - we shouldn't criticise them for it, because nobody can be expected to perform a text-book exercise in de-escalating a violent situation they didn't prepare or ask for, because it's ridiculous to expect that from anyone other than a police officer.

 

[Fubsy]

The fact of the matter is, according to all the reports - they were attacked because they were lesbian, that's the whole reason it started, the motive. Not because they were black, asian, fat, thin, white - they were attacked because they were lesbians.

Going over the same ground again.....

My post was to try and get to the matter of *if* the reports turn out not to be true and there was no forcing of kissing or mention of sexuality, would this still be a homophobic attack purely because it was an attack on some people that happened to be lesbians? Or is it AUTOMATICALLY a hate crime because of their sexuality?

***I am not, and most posters are not, questioning the facts of this case, just the possibilities as there is nothing proven here only victim reports which are being taken as the only version of truth at this time and rightly so.***

I want to understand where we are going here in terms of potentially having different levels of punishment depending on the group identity of victims and what proof is required to dish out said punishment, no matter how much these scumbags deserve it, it needs to be transparent and consistent. You have Jussie Smollet to thank for this cynicism.