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How did the UK become totalitarian police state?

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by Paul_cz, Dec 13, 2018.

  1. efish

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    [/QUOTE]

    Sorry for my vague whatabouttery considering you're crystal clear clarity in identifying this as a left wing issue. My mind reading skills are poor I have to go by what I can read. p.s I find Brand's remarks stupid, offensive and highly inappropriate.

    Obviously I can tell the difference and know its not a left or a right wing claim as I was responding to what you said and i.e. left wing issue.

    I have difficulty keeping up here, I am slow that way. No idea what you are on about here.

    Farage has every right to complain as has everyone else wither that's in public marching late at night in a leafy village or even in private with his chums as some may prefer to present things.

    I don't think this is the right way to complain.

    Which is why I posted the original comment in this thread rather than the Brexit party thread.

    Just to be clear.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2019
  2. Thecaferacer

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    I never said it was a left wing issue. I merely said that the left believe even innocuous speech leads to violence. It was a sarcastic comment that by the standards of the left she would be prosecuted for what she said.

    The original point is that you were equating brands comments to be on par with what Farage apparently did as a child. I firmly disagree.
     
  3. Thecaferacer

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    Unlikely she will apologise. She will argue her right to offend with a joke against an Emmanuel Goldstein figure and be broadly backed up. look at the keeness of the MSM in supporting the milkshake attacks. In comparison to that all Jo Brand did was said some words
     
  4. efish

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    No. I may not have been clear, that is not the point I was trying to make. I don't think they are the same, other than I don't thin either is an example of criminal behavior.

    Farage defended his actions by saying that what he said was not true (he did not believe what he was saying/ is not a fascist) and was simply being offensive.

    I see nothing wrong with that excuse although I think what he said was extremely offensive .

    He was highly offensive and the remarks are not equal as he was a minor (I had to defend Farage in another post recently on this issue, which is why I remember what he said).
    I agree with you here and what you are saying.

    I still think his response here, to call for police action right out of the gate is highly inappropriate.
    This must be where we disagree.

    He has every right to be angry and offended particularly as he has been subject to criminal assault.

    However.

    I don't think that speech like this should be a matter for police investigation or prosecution (in my opinion).

    Just really surprised that Farage went the criminal prosecution road here.
    I thought it was the one aspect of his politics where I agreed with him i.e freedom of speech issues.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2019
  5. Caracus2k

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    People have been successfully prosecuted for far less direct incitements to violence in the context of a 'joke'.

    Mark Meechan immediately springs to mind.

     
  6. Thecaferacer

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    I can agree with you there but what Jo Brand said concerns me.

    It's been called a joke as she is a comedian, but the structure of the comment was designed to purely get a laugh off people thinking Jo Brand was fantasising about an acid attack. The audience laughed so they obviously thought it was funny.

    If you substitute some keys words it becomes more problematic such as " why bother with milkshake when you could rape his kids. Obviously I wouldn't do it - that just my fantasy"

    I'll defend free speech, especially in the world of comedy as that's often a well needed mirror on our society, but what she said....its way to close to the mark. She doesn't have the comedic skill for that unlike say Frankie Boyle.
     
  7. StriderX

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    Maybe if you know you'd use the full context, it wouldn't seem disingenuous, they cut out some dialogue to make exactly this sort of scene and you've fallen for it.

    The fact is that she didn't mention Farage by name and that's rather important because in a similar circumstance no one gave a **** about when Farage did it to Jo Cox and continues to do it every single time he opens his mouth to a massive amount of the population. Maybe if he didn't want the attention of violence he shouldnt have incited it himself. I wont cry for him, he made this bed.

    Hypocrite as a word is starting to bore me.



     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2019
  8. Thecaferacer

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    Have you been at that Kool Aid yet again? I listened to her full comment on radio 4. Unless you think it was the BBC who editted it to infer this.

    She may not have said "I want to douse Nigel Farage in battery acid" but whilst discussing him having milkshake over him she said what she did. You are truly gullible if you believe she was discussing a hypothetical third person. One of your luvvies screwed up. Accept it and move on
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2019
  9. efish

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    Concerns me what she said, as did Hitler salute dog gag guy or rape gag political man. But so does the criminalization of these forms of speech and politicians who call for such things from both the left and the right.

    In our unhealthy political enviroment the call to arrest political opponents who say highly offensive things, you can see the appeal.

    And also the danger.

    Be offended, attempt to make sure they don't say such things again, fine. With rape gag man or dog gag man, don't vote for them, Brand, don't watch, complain to the broadcaster, debate and make clear its not civil or acceptable language.

    Criminalization.

    I don't agree and in this case where a senior and influential politician screams 'arrest' right of the bat without reflection.

    I don't agree and I view it with concern.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2019
  10. Paul_cz

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  11. efish

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    Yes the criminalization.

    The title I don't have an issue with its how the far right are dealt with here, humor is commonly used (title is a joke on the dead Kennedy's song, Nazi punks **** off) . Last E.D.L march in Glasgow people lined the streets and just laughed at them.

    They did not like it.

    Some years back, on my way to work was a skinhead builder working in a predominantly Jewish residential area, he decided to wear a big swastika t-shirt, looked very intimidating, very large gentlemen. I just gave him a very friendly greeting 'how's it going wee man' etc. Made a point of stopping, being very friendly and indicating I was far from intimidated.

    He got the message and altered his attire. I altered my morning greeting.

    Its the civil way of dealing with these things.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2019
  12. Panos

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    The day the average person believes the lies of the media without fact checking, you are allowing the system to enslave you.
    Good example today. BBC, Reuters, Independent, Guardian, the whole lot, took the Italian Police announcement about the Nazis arrested yesterday (with the AA missile) and completely falsified the wording "on translation".

    The Italian Police said that the Nazi group had fought alongside the other Nazi groups in Ukraine, against the Russian separatists.
    And all mass media are reporting that the Italian Nazi group fought with the separatists in Ukraine. And that because it doesn't fit the establishment narrative and the perception trying to push to the people.
    That we put Nazis (Poroshenko) in charge in Ukraine. The same person the EU report 3 months earlier, said shouldn't be touched because of his racist, and dangerous views that would destabilize the country.
    And so he did, on his first day, his first act was to remove the Russian language as second language of the country, and completely ban the usage of Russian language. And his second act was to demand from Russia to close the naval base in Crimea.

    I do wonder what would happen if Cuba demands the closure of Guantanamo and that the 99 years lease had expired a decade now. Oh wait.

    We live in post truth world gents. Enjoy the sleepwalking.
     
  13. GordyR

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    I'm not saying that you're incorrect, i'll reserve judgement until i've read enough to form an opinion, but do you have a source for this that isn't linked to known pro-Russian propaganda outfits?

    So far all I've come across is a dreadful piece by RT.
     
  14. Panos

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    https://www.poliziadistato.it/articolo/225d2c47fb2c9ef299497390

    The official Police report not good enough?

    Or now we discredit the Italian Police report because it doesn't fit the anti-Russian narrative?

    Here is the exact sentence
     
  15. GordyR

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    Of course it would be good enough, what exactly did you think I was asking for when I requested a source other than RT?

    What a bizarrely emotive response for a source request. Why would you jump to be so overly defensive? :confused:

    Surely like me you're only interested in the truthiness of any matter, and wouldn't want to give disproportionate weight to something, merely because it suits your own predetermined beliefs, right?

    Regardless, unless I've missed something, the police report when translated by Google, doesn't say they fought against Russian separatists as you claim.

    Do you have another source that might help clear this up by any chance?

    EDIT:

    It looks as though the police report you linked to has been modified today (16/07/19) as the line you've quoted no longer appears.

    Instead the official police report now says the following:

    Which completely matches the Italian police's prior tweet on the matter. This is therefore suggestive of either poor initial translation or an error in the original police report, which has now been corrected.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2019
  16. Panos

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    here is the original

    [​IMG]


    the plot thickens.......
     
  17. GordyR

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    I'm not sure there's much plot to thicken to be honest.

    There's three possible explanations as far as I can see:

    1. The original police report used specific Italian language that when translated by Google translator, erroneously translates to against separatists.

    2. The typist for the Italian police made a minor mistake in the publication of their report, and later corrected it to match their tweet.

    3. There is a huge international conspiracy that includes every independent media outlet across the Americas, the UK and most of Europe. They all are in cahoots and get together regularly with the singular aim of painting Russia as being a bit naughty, even though being almost all entirely privately owned, absolutely no benefit for them to do so is readily apparent.

    It's up to you what you believe, but honestly, the most likely explanation is that a typist at the Italian police made a small mistake and later corrected it.

    It looks to me as though Russia Today, who as I'm sure you're aware are a demonstrably propagandist state run organisation with an atrocious track record, jumped all over this in order promulgate their oft expressed "The West is mean about Russia" narrative.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2019
  18. Panos

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    1. The original, and published report, uses the word "contra". Which means against.
    2. There is also the audio
    https://www.radioradicale.it/scheda...strate-armi-da-guerra-ad-estremisti-di-destra
    at 5:50 exactly says that they fought AGAINST
    3. Nazism is something common in Ukraine and non existent in Russia. Russian Nazis are the equivalent to unicorns. You are sent to siberia if not killed outright the moment you exhibit the swastika.
    Trust me on that.
     
  19. StriderX

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    Honestly I believe that either could be true, that they're helping the Nazi Ukrainian government or that Russia is funding Far-right efforts in Europe to destablise it.
     
  20. GordyR

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    This could be a huge red herring, but according to this translation site, Contra with a capital "C" means soldier:

    https://en.bab.la/dictionary/english-italian/contra

    Whereas contro or contra without a capital "C" means versus/against.

    Assuming this is correct, then it seems to me to be the most likely source of the confusion and the reason for the later correction. Still, it's very difficult to make these kinds of guesses with any real conviction when you're dealing with a foreign language.

    I've listened quite carefully all around the 5:50 minute mark, and cannot hear anything that sounds remotely like the word "contra".

    However, I do not speak Italian at all, so cannot really put much faith in my own ears. Out of interest, do you speak Italian fluently? Does anyone here?

    Given the above, a simple translation mistake surrounding the word Contra seems to be the most likely explanation to me, until of course fresh evidence shows otherwise.

    A quick Google seems to suggest that there are plenty of active enthno-nationalist, white supremacist, openly Fascist and extreme far-right groups in Russia today.

    But I'm no expert in this particular field so will have to take your word for it.

    Regardless, whether they were for or against the separatists doesn't really matter to be honest, I'm simply not sure how any of this could lead any rational person to conclude that this is part of a huge international conspiracy between independent, privately owned Western media outlets, and that Russia Today is heroically exposing the hidden truth or their dastardly deeds.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2019