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How did the UK become totalitarian police state?

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by Paul_cz, Dec 13, 2018.

  1. Yadda

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Nov 19, 2009

    Posts: 2,153

    Location: Baa

    A big Maglite is handy in the dark. Very useful for investigating strange noises coming from the shed late at night (even if it turns out to be a badger).

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    Last edited: Dec 14, 2018
  2. Werewolf

    Commissario

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 27,412

    Location: Panting like a fiend

    Lets put it this way.

    We don't live in a society where violent crime against the householder is common (even in the US it's not that common and IIRC the gun bought for self/home defence is more likely to be used in a family argument or accidental shooting), and you can use virtually anything that is legal (everything from DIY tools and sports equipment* up) to protect yourself if you are under threat - UK law on self defence in your home basically means you have to massively go over the top to be convicted of anything (although the police quite rightly do investigate every claimed self defence death as if it could be a murder).
    IIRC there have only been two"self defence" cases where a home owner was convicted in recent years, one was Tony Martin (who shot someone in the back with an illegal shotgun and left them to die rather than call the police), the other was a bunch of idiots who after seeing off a burgler gathered up friends and family and went out to hunt him down then beat him to death in the street with horrified witnesses telling them to stop. That gives you an idea of how far over the top you have to go if it's "self defence" at home.


    *There was a case a few years back where someone used a harpoon to defend himself when a violent neighbour tried to break in - it went to court mainly for the "public interest" reasons but he was found not guilty in very short order (he kept his diving gear in the hall cupboard and it was the first thing to hand).
    There was also the case of Kenneth Noye (later convicted of stabbing someone to death in a road rage case), a known criminal under surveillance by the police who stabbed a plain clothes officer who was observing his property to death, but claimed self defence and that he didn't know it was a police officer and the jury believed him.
     
  3. something daft already!!

    Mobster

    Joined: Jan 11, 2007

    Posts: 4,230

    Location: South East

    I have a heavy adjustable spanner in my bag that I just used to fix some plumbing at my partners flat.
     
  4. Paul_cz

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Feb 1, 2009

    Posts: 2,334

    Thanks for the information. But what can you use for a selfdefense when out and about? I suppose that flashlight posted above? :)
    I bought my younger sister a pepper spray, she hasn't needed to use it, but I feel much better knowing she has at least some way to incapacitate potential attacker.
     
  5. Nasher

    Capodecina

    Joined: Nov 22, 2006

    Posts: 11,824

    I have a 3ft breaker bar by the front door for "changing my wheels". In the car any number of things, a wrench, screwdriver...
     
  6. Yadda

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Nov 19, 2009

    Posts: 2,153

    Location: Baa

    Anything you are carrying that has a feasible non-violent purpose that you have with you for a feasible non-violent reason. Or anything lying around that you can put your hands on, providing the force you use is deemed necessary and reasonable.
     
  7. Uther

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Jun 16, 2005

    Posts: 9,103

    I don't feel threatened in any way when out and about so have no need for self defense weapons. I do have a mobile phone I could ram down an attackers throat I suppose, and my bunch of keys could do some damage.Other than that I'm fine. I don't walk round with 'victim' on my forehead.
    At home of course all bets are off, and due to my hobby I have all manner of swords, dirks, axes and bows and arrows lying around. My legally held gun is safely locked away so I won't be needing that.
     
  8. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 17,984

    Wheres that dude that'd say "alpha males don't need weapons" or some such?

    Probably banned from SC, so i'll say it for fun, just fisticuffs til they drop.
     
  9. Avenged7Fold

    Capodecina

    Joined: Sep 12, 2012

    Posts: 11,559

    Location: Surrey

    Talking about how 'safe' your country is, isn't there a massive human trafficking and modern slavery issue with Cz?

    I feel sad that you live in a place where you think giving pepper spray to a young girl is a responsible thing to do.
     
  10. ttaskmaster

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Sep 11, 2013

    Posts: 8,017

    Location: Reading, UK

    We've had all manner of stuff like that throughout our history. It comes and goes like the tides, really. It'll all change again soon enough.
    We could bring back the Special Patrol Group, if you like?

    He was jailed for having something he should NEVER have, under ANY circumstances whatsoever.
    Doesn't matter if it worked or not, if he ever intended to use it or not, if he paid money for it or not, if he's an angel or a demon... It's not allowed. Not ever. End of.

    If you don't like it, maybe don't come here.....?

    How does one observe a property to death? :p
    Does the officer sit on continual stakeout shift until he starves? Are the cops that badly shorthanded and underfunded? Should I be sending pizza? :D

    The list is long, but you'd have to prove you weren't carrying it for the purpose of self-defence or doing harm, as that then makes it a weapon in the eyes of the law.
    Personally I've been a fan of using harsh language since 1986, even though taking off and nuking the entire site from orbit is truly the only way to be sure.
     
  11. VincentHanna

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 30, 2013

    Posts: 17,410

    Same, and I'm a slightly overweight weed.
     
  12. something daft already!!

    Mobster

    Joined: Jan 11, 2007

    Posts: 4,230

    Location: South East

    I honestly do not feel the need to "bear arms". Perhaps it is due to being 6'2" and quite broad, people tend to not mess with me when I am out. I think I give an air of don't mess with me with my brisk walk too. It would be different if I was a 5.3 woman. I would probably get more sex for starters.
     
  13. Angilion

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Dec 5, 2003

    Posts: 15,737

    Location: Just to the left of my PC

    Well, if you make everything connected with anything even remotely resembling a gun a gun crime, then you're going to have a lot of gun crimes. If you applied the same definition of "gun crime" to both countries you'd probably find that there are far fewer gun crimes in the UK than in your country. Also...there are more than 6 times as many people in the UK than in the Czech republic so even if the same crime existed at the same rate it would occur more than 6 times as often in the UK.

    I agree with you in general, though. 5 years jail for having a non-functional stun gun in a safe in your home is wildly excessive. Also, I think that the law is being deliberately deceptive in definitions. A non-functional stun gun is not the same thing as a functional actual gun, but they're both labelled as "firearm" and carry the same sentence.

    My guess is that it was the only charge they could prove but they were sure he was guilty of other things as well. Like Al Capone only being convicted of tax evasion.
     
  14. Angilion

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Dec 5, 2003

    Posts: 15,737

    Location: Just to the left of my PC

    That second case wasn't even presented as a "self defence" case. The defending lawyer quite rightly advised their client that there wasn't a cat in hell's chance of having blatant vengeance classed as self defence and that defence was never offered. It was only the insane baying hounds in the media and the wannabee lynch mob murderers who pretended it had anything to do with self defence. The victim didn't die, but they were brain damaged by the attack and it was definitely attempted murder. Also, it's not known if the victim actually was the burglar. Lynch mobs generally don't much care who their victim is.

    There was also a case in which a person inside a house shot a person outside the house through a window, killing them. That was considered a grey enough area to go to trial. The killer was acquitted on the grounds that he used reasonable force in defence.
     
  15. Poneros

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 18, 2015

    Posts: 2,563

    Tbf it isn't a totalitarian state just yet, but I've looked at it as a latent one. Meaning all the legal frameworks are in place for it to be one in a **** hits the fan scenario. Certainly, if you ask how did it get to this, the answer is in this thread: look at the answers. So long as the people are welcoming or tolerant of these endeavours then that's what's going to happen. And it's not just this story but thousands of such aberrant judgements. In short, the UK isn't really a free place, but it's good if you want to make some money. Just make sure not to tweet anything, the police seem to love arresting people for that. ;)
     
  16. Paul_cz

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Feb 1, 2009

    Posts: 2,334

    What a way to frame it!

    I actually don't think she will ever need to use it. But I am very much of the philosophy "better to have and not need, than need and not have". Also known as common sense.

    And I never said Czechland is perfect. Sex trafficking is a problem. On the other hand, so are acid attacks, stabbings, islamist bomb attacks and pedophile rapist rings that are so prevalent in UK :(

    It's not about having "victim" written on one's forehead. It is about NOT becoming victim in case something happens. The exact opposite.
    Now, as a tall guy I also do not carry any weapon and feel safe, so I emphasize. But I like the fact that if I wanted to get a pepper spray, or a gun, I could, because my government does not outlaw it.
     
  17. amigafan2003

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jan 18, 2008

    Posts: 14,088

    Location: Fylde Coast, Lancashire

    Man intentionally buys illegal firearm intending to use it, gets the prescribed sentence for doing so.

    I have no issue with the judgement.
     
  18. amigafan2003

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jan 18, 2008

    Posts: 14,088

    Location: Fylde Coast, Lancashire

    Your fists or even better your legs to run in the opposite direction.
     
  19. Nasher

    Capodecina

    Joined: Nov 22, 2006

    Posts: 11,824

    Well right now people are begging for more police so we are going in the opposite direction really, more towards anarchy. Just look at North and East London. Also police not even showing up to deal with some crimes.

    Except on social media ofc lol, but I don't use it so I don't care.
     
  20. BowdonUK

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jan 17, 2016

    Posts: 1,912

    What is the situation if someone is trespassing on the property, what legally can a home owner do?

    There was an incident last week were 2 guys were looking around the back yards near my property and then one jumped over the fence in my yard. I disturbed him and he jumped back out and ran off. I'm wondering is that all I can legally do?

    It is sad that in todays society these confrontations are happening more often because there are fewer cops around. The nearest police station to me is 15 minutes away. On the police facebook page for my town there is more house burglaries happening and vehicle crime in certain places. The town is slowly being enveloped by crime.
     
  21. Caracus2k

    Mobster

    Joined: Jan 27, 2009

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