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How did the UK become totalitarian police state?

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by Paul_cz, Dec 13, 2018.

  1. Burnsy2023

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Nov 17, 2003

    Posts: 36,033

    Location: Southampton, UK

    Having Governments turning tyrannical isn't a very British concept.
    This is a copied from a reply I made somewhere else on a similar topic

     
  2. Poneros

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Feb 18, 2015

    Posts: 1,882

    Nothing except call the police. Any attempt to defend your property will likely see you land in jail, as has happened before with others.

    (my emphasis in bold)

    Unfortunately the police is bloody useless, I can tell you from experience. Had similar troubles with a bloke and did the "right thing" etc calling the police & bla bla, they didn't do ****. Only way it got resolved was that I moved soon after & my EE dead, cold stare was enough to deter an escalation for that period. Had I not moved away I probably would've gotten into trouble eventually. He definitely tried to get me to cross that line but I'm always aware of context, and in the UK it better be life or death, else the self-defense itself is going to land you into more trouble than otherwise. A sad reality no doubt.
     
  3. Angilion

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Dec 5, 2003

    Posts: 15,176

    Location: Just to the left of my PC

    That statement is not true. It's as simple as that. The UK has very strong defence laws and they're even stronger on your own property, especially if you live there. Any intruder in your home is legally classified as an immediate threat and can be legally dealt with on that basis.

    I'd have no worries about using force under those circumstances, whatever I deemed necessary to stop them being a threat. If I could take them by surprise, all the better. This isn't a sporting contest, so you stack the odds in your favour every way you can.

    I wouldn't be particularly surprised to be arrested, but no further than that. I'd be very surprised if it got to trial at all and there would be pretty much no chance of a conviction. You take 12 people at random and ask them who's in the wrong in that situation and you're having a not guilty verdict. The rare "defence" convictions in the UK are nowhere near defence. Torturing a burglar for fun, throwing them in a pit and setting them on fire, for example. Ambushing people, shooting them in the back and deliberating leaving them to bleed to death, for example. And yes, those are real examples of things some psychopaths called "defence".

    An example that I know of personally:

    Police were called to a house by an un-named third party and found one man holding a machete and another man on the floor bleeding from a wound inflicted by a blade. Like a machete, for example.

    End result: Reasonable force, no charges made. Didn't even go to trial - no reason for a trial, since no crime had been committed. The wounded man was charged, though, some kind of assault charge.

    The guy with the machete ended up in a cell temporarily mainly because he refused to drop the machete when the police told him to and they ended up having to take it off him and taking him to a cell. After all, the police can't be immediately magically aware of what happened and who's lying (not even in CSI-land, let alone reality) and brandishing a blood-stained machete is not an effective way to convince people that you're innocent. The police investigated, concluded that the evidence showed that the person with the machete was defending themself with reasonable force and therefore had not committed any crime. It turned out that the other person had attacked them with the machete and they'd been able to take it off them and they'd stopped when the other person no longer posed a threat to them (because now they had the machete and the attacker was cowed and compliant). The wound was inflicted while struggling for control of the weapon. Clear cut case of reasonable force in defence.


    So here's your chance of a counter-argument: Provide examples.
     
  4. Meridian

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 11,704

    Location: Vvardenfell

    A perfect summing up. The law recognises that in the heat of the moment you cannot make rational decisions as to what is reasonable force, and it allows you a lot of leeway. The only people successfully prosecuted for "defending themself" were using wildly disproportionate force against a person who was in no way a threat. Either to person or property. I will remind you that in the best known case, Tony Martin, he opened fire without warning and shot his main victim in the back as he was trying to get away. Having done that he popped next door for a cup of tea without telling anyone what he had done. It was the second victim who called the ambulance, who then called the police. The only other one I am aware of involved tying the burglar up, dropping him in a vehicle inspection pit and setting him on fire.

    If the criminal is lying on the floor crying, or running away, you leave them alone. But if they are still vertical and facing you it's very unlikely that the jury will convict if you keep attacking them. BUT...

    At the end of the day, if someone is dead the police have to investigate. And if the circumstances are even slightly murky, a jury must sort it out. That how the law works here. Otherwise, for example, if I have a beef with someone, all I have to do is invite them home, kill them, and make it look like a burglary. Bingo, the perfect murder.
     
  5. Nasher

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Nov 22, 2006

    Posts: 9,919

    It does seem to be a bit inconsistent though. Most likely the best thing to do if you get the upper hand is just not call anyone or you might cause yourself a world of problems. Kick them out on to the street and lock the door.
     
  6. Angilion

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Dec 5, 2003

    Posts: 15,176

    Location: Just to the left of my PC

    Where are your examples?

    If you read some of the "news" sources, it would seem that every day in the UK approximately 483,000 people steal a moped, assault everyone in a 10 mile radius, burgle 64 houses and then successfully sue all the homeowners for not leaving their doors unlocked to make the burgling easier, before voluntarily booking into a jail that's actually a 5 star full service hotel at public expense.
     
  7. dowie

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 29, 2008

    Posts: 36,485

    I'm quite happy for the courts to crack down on illegal weapons tbh.. I don't think people should be walking around with stun guns. If anything it is the lenient sentences that should be reviewed when it comes to this sort of thing - this is after all one of the useful functions of prison, it might not be great at rehabilitating people or acting as a deterrent but it does have a useful function in keeping violent people who would do serious harm to others away from the rest of society for a bit.

    I think a suspended sentence and a curfew/community order was dodgy in this case for example - the offence took place during the day so seemingly keeping him in at night isn't really all that reassuring - the teenager not only had an illegal zombie knife in his possession but he took it out and attempted to use it after a bit of road rage... frankly he should have been locked up for carrying it around let alone pulling it out and wanting to use it.

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/cri...er-referred-to-attorney-general-a4002816.html

    [​IMG]
     
  8. Mercenary Keyboard Warrior

    Soldato

    Joined: Aug 4, 2007

    Posts: 7,017

    Location: Wilds of suffolk

    You been reading the Deraily male again? ;)
     
  9. BowdonUK

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jan 17, 2016

    Posts: 1,252

    Thanks for the replies guys.
     
  10. Terminal_Boy

    Soldato

    Joined: Apr 13, 2013

    Posts: 5,565

    Location: La France

    This is why you never get out of your car in such situations. Several tons of steel beats several ounces of steel every single time.
     
  11. Panos

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Nov 22, 2009

    Posts: 8,745

    Location: NE Lincolnshire

    All current cars weight is around 1t and are made of aluminium not steel these days. :)
     
  12. tom_e

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Dec 26, 2003

    Posts: 25,711

    Location: West mids

    Plenty of cars still have steel chassis and weigh well over a ton.
     
  13. Panos

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Nov 22, 2009

    Posts: 8,745

    Location: NE Lincolnshire

    Yeah but the knife will hit glass & aluminium.... not the chassis steel :D
     
  14. iamtheoneneo

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Mar 15, 2010

    Posts: 8,505

    Location: Bucks

    Oh yeh were so becoming a totalitarian police state just because some scumbag gets the book thrown at him (which has nothing to do with the police btw)

    Given there has been a 19% reduction in police funding, and you can no longer find a police officer outside of Chelsea - I think the OP needs to get back to real life.
     
  15. SPG

    Mobster

    Joined: Jul 28, 2010

    Posts: 4,708

    Good job he wasnt caught doing 140 on his motorbike with his fake stun gun, that would be 2 life sentences.
     
  16. jsmoke

    Soldato

    Joined: Jun 17, 2012

    Posts: 6,229

    What's his previous history, the police, courts and papers have specific guidelines on protecting people.
     
  17. Avenged7Fold

    Capodecina

    Joined: Sep 12, 2012

    Posts: 11,407

    Location: Surrey

    Drug dealer, previous convictions and tons of other weapons in his house found too.

    Hmmmm...

    Unsurprising they throw the book at him.
     
  18. jsmoke

    Soldato

    Joined: Jun 17, 2012

    Posts: 6,229

    People assuming the cops are idiots again. I bet most people in here have no idea the system going on behind the scenes, literally an army of people between the politicians, legislators, courts, police, prison staff, appeals, parole board, social workers, drug help, security guards etc.

    Politics is largely run by lawyers who, love their laws. You have to control people whether you like it or not, especially in large populated areas where issues such as poverty, lack of education, racial issues, drugs are common.

    Parents control their kids, the government essentially is parenting large sections of the population. In most ways we are still very privileged, look at how drug deals have been treated in Indonesia for example.
     
  19. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 15,550

    No, the system is filled with incompetence, you only need look at the top to find the lowest quality cream available. You may have some principled folk in there, but largely worthless among the crappy no-gooders.
     
  20. Nasher

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Nov 22, 2006

    Posts: 9,919

    Because anyone with any brains wants nothing to do with any of it.

    Really the only places you'll find any intelligence in the public sector these days is in defense and security services. Who have so far also managed to avoid getting to politicised.
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2018