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How did the UK become totalitarian police state?

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by Paul_cz, Dec 13, 2018.

  1. nox_uk

    Hitman

    Joined: Sep 12, 2006

    Posts: 626

    I'm not a lawyer, but I have a basic understanding as we cover some of the aspects of law in our martial arts classes.

    One of the biggest reasons he got what he did was because the stun gun was disguised as an everyday object. This in itself is highly illegal - sword canes and the like are illegal for this very reason. The only way you have a defence is if the item in question is antique. As we use swords (wooden/bamboo) this topic does crop up occasionally.

    And regarding the defending your home - the basic premise of the law (and what we are taught) is to retreat & run if at all possible under every circumstance, and to only ever use our art as a last resort. It shows you are doing your part to try to not fight, and the law likes people not fighting. However when it comes to your home, it is considered that you have already retreated - it is meant to be your safe place. It does not given you permission to use excessive force, but only what is deemed necessary by the court.
     
  2. kwerk

    Wise Guy

    Joined: May 23, 2009

    Posts: 5,748

    The UK somehow turned in to the biggest safety freaks on earth in the last 2 or 3 decades. When my dad was 10 he said he had a shotgun and the government would paid him a bounty for squirrels or "tree rats" he killed with it. He also had a 1911 handgun he found in the attic of his house at the same age and about 100 rounds and nobody gave a damn about a 10 year old shooting it off. He through it away when he ran out bullets because he couldnt buy any more though.

    Brits have a deep feudal peasant mindset engrained in to their psyche where they like defer all things to authority figures who tell them what is allowed or not.

    Some of it also goes back to the religious persecution (mostly of Catholics) where the best policy was simply to agree with everyone else in society no matter what, or get executed.
     
  3. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 18,691

    Eh no, it's called delegating aspects of society to a watchdog, just because one person (gee an anecdote, how amazingly vogue) didn't even accidentally hurt someone isn't worth discussing. I am many times happy that a 10 year old can't just pick up a gun and fire it without cause for anxiety. And dont come out with "muh common sense" crap, it's even more crass than an anecdote.

    Should we get rid of the police, ambulance service, army and fire service then to sooth your battered ego?
     
  4. kwerk

    Wise Guy

    Joined: May 23, 2009

    Posts: 5,748

    I live in one of the reddest US states and never plan in setting foot in the UK again and dont have to deal with any of this so dont care. 10 year old can shoot guns, you dont have to wear motorcycle helmets, there's no building codes outside the city limits, no MOTs, can carry a gun, can legally use an ever increasing number of drugs, you can pretty much whatever you like as long as it doesnt interfere with anyone else. It works fine.

    Was merely giving an anecdote if how it used to be in the time before Britain's slide in to global irrelevance under the crypto-cult police state of political correctness.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2018
  5. efish

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jan 11, 2014

    Posts: 1,073


    The defendants lawyer attempted to suggest that the circumstances here were exceptional

    Judge can limit the sentence if you can can offer a defense i.e. demonstrate that the circumstances surrounding possession of an illegal firearm were exceptional. In this case the defendant very clearly could not.
     
  6. D.P.

    Caporegime

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 29,965


    Being a drug dealer seemingly didn't sit well with the Judge.
     
  7. D.P.

    Caporegime

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 29,965


    Retreat and run is in general the best strategy for any self-defense situation. However well equipped, trained and prepared you may be, there is always a risk. When defending yourslef within your home escape is not usually an option, so the law allows you to use any force necessary, including killing the attacker.
     
  8. nox_uk

    Hitman

    Joined: Sep 12, 2006

    Posts: 626

    Different countries have different views on killing the attacker. I should clarify i'm in the UK, and under UK law I am pretty sure you would need to show your life is in real danger for such an action.
     
  9. D.P.

    Caporegime

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 29,965


    No, not at all, you just have to show that the force was reasonable under the circumstances. The UK courts are filled with cases with people attacked in the own home killed the attacker and the force deemed reasonable. The only exceptions, and they really are exceptions, is when the 'defender' did something like chase the burglar down the street and hack them to death, catch them and tie them up and then proceed to smash their head in, or shoot the burglar in the back as they are escaping without giving any warning.


    If someone breaks into your house and you end up in a fight, you can do anything and use any available weapon that just happened to be at hand and ultimately kill the attacker without any recourse in the UK. If you have eliminated the threat or the person is no longer a threat because they are trying to run away, then you can no longer kill them and plead reasonable force. E.g., if the attacker is armed with a knife, you grab a kitchen knife and end up in a brawl where the attacked is stabbed and dies, you will be let off scot-free. You can;t stab them in the back as they are trying to leg it., you can;t slit their throat if they are lying unconscious on your kitchen floor.
     
  10. Faustus

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 20, 2007

    Posts: 5,326

    Excellent example of sentencing - totally fair. Parliament sets the sentencing tariffs not the courts. Nothing to see hear folk, move along.
     
  11. kwerk

    Wise Guy

    Joined: May 23, 2009

    Posts: 5,748

    What are you supposed to do if you're disabled or too old or weak to fight an attacker or run away?

     
  12. nox_uk

    Hitman

    Joined: Sep 12, 2006

    Posts: 626

    Rely on your wit?
     
  13. efish

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jan 11, 2014

    Posts: 1,073

    The excuse that he bought an illegal weapon to allow him to effectively engage in a criminal enterprise does not look like a winning argument. Like a bank robber claiming that he bought the shot gun for personal protection as he feared attack from bank clerks.

    Noting as a further excuse that the defendant has an "anti social personality disorder" is the cherry on top of the cake.

    If the judge had lowered the sentence, it would have set a precedent in law that its ok to Rambo up if you are engaged in a criminal enterprise and fear retribution.
     
  14. efish

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jan 11, 2014

    Posts: 1,073

    Bad arguments always work better if you can insert a sympathetic subject.

    Little old ladies, the defense of moms apple pie or the protection of cute puppy dogs certainly sounds better than attempting to argue that drug dealers should be able to run around with concealed weapons and participate in a potentially violent criminal enterprise.
     
  15. kwerk

    Wise Guy

    Joined: May 23, 2009

    Posts: 5,748

    Nobody is advocating the criminal use of guns. I do advocate ending drug prohibition though.
    I would have thought with the UK's obsession with equality they would be more open to something that makes every equally able to defend themselves from crime.
     
  16. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 18,691

    Considering all the evidence point's towards increased aggression toward's the person carrying the armament, just no. Even the Police carrying tasers run into more violent situations, as soon as you point something at someone, it's all or nothing in some people eyes, you may calm down the more soft of heart, but everyone else is probably just going to jump you instead of running.

    I do NOT want some ****** chav having a Glock, USP or 1911 rocking up anywhere near me tyvm and me having the same thing doesn't make me safer.
     
  17. Faustus

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 20, 2007

    Posts: 5,326

    Well the POTUS reckons they way to combat school shootings in the U.S. is to arm teachers, in fact to arm everyone. I'm sure there must be a flaw in that sort of reasoning but for the minute it escapes me. :rolleyes:
     
  18. D.P.

    Caporegime

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 29,965


    they are equally able to defend themselves. An illegal firearm is still illegal whether you are a drug dealer or not.
     
  19. kwerk

    Wise Guy

    Joined: May 23, 2009

    Posts: 5,748

    You're not allowed to buy one in the UK for self-defense, is the point. You can't even buy handguns other than the stupid loophole for ridiculously long revolvers.

    I mean if you are a 100lb female or confined to a wheelchair or 90 years old what are you expected to do? You're allowed to use things to defend yourself but you're not allowed to buy or prepare things to defend yourself. It's akin to living under the threat of possibly being forced to jump out of a plane one day, but not being allowed to buy a parachute, but if you happen to find one on the plane or on the way down it's OK?? Makes no sense.
     
  20. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 18,691

    Making ridiculous arguments isn't going to get you guns in this country, "oh no what is a quadriplegic vegetable going to do". If you're in the situation where you're totally unable to do a great many tasks, then it's someone else's problem, having a gun when you're eyesight/memory/hand-eye coord or whatever is trash is just going to get you killed anyway or even more so if you now have a gun in the house with little ability to use it, free armament for your assailant.

    Or you could accept the reality that you're only even alive because society has progressed enough for you to survive long enough in the first place, ignoring any potential incidents someone might inflict on you at random.