How is London affordable now?

[Hades]

I've always lived in or near London and always worked in central London. When I was in my 20's in the late 1980's and 1990's I loved it. The social aspect was fantastic. But now I am in my late 40's I'm starting to really dislike it. My social circle has declined as people have left, moved away or emigrated and as I've had to move further out to afford a family home my commute is 1.5 to 2 hours each way, frequently standing. I'm on much more than the average salary and on a very good salary even for London. But it doesn't feel like it because everything is so expensive. Some parts of central London are a real cesspit now too. Maybe that was always the case but I'm noticing it more. I never drive into London at weekends anymore as traffic is too bad.

My wife still won't move away but with both our jobs constantly at risk I'd love to up roots and move somewhere else in the country. I've said to her that when I retire I'd really like us to move away. There are some beautiful parts of the country. But as she won't go it will be an interesting decision in a few years. But maybe the old adage is true and I'm simply getting older and my priorities are changing; tired of London, tired of life.

In an ideal world we would sell the house, buy something moderate in a country area and give some of the equity to the kids as a deposit for their own place wherever they choose.

 

[Jean-F]

I just won't go there.

I've been offered jobs there, I've been offered the option of jobs where I can commute down and stay at the companies expense there, I've been offered roles that they have said they are quite happy for me to drive down and only spend a couple of hours there.
They have all paid a ton more than I make now, and I've refused every one of them.

Nope nope nope.

Obviously it's your call, but something must really bug you about the place if you can nonchalantly say no to some of those options.

 

[inferno]

I just bought a property in Raynes Park. It will take about 25 minutes to Waterloo on the train so the location is quite good but the only way I could afford to pay the deposit was because I work abroad and am able to save a lot. I did look at buying somewhere in Fulham but the apartment would have needed to be rented out for 1800 a month and I just couldn't see why anyone would pay that much in rent for a 1 bed, it's crazy!

I look at my friends who have great jobs but even for them it's going to be difficult to save a deposit , especially if they are renting.

Unfortuantely my sister will never be able to afford a property, she will have to wait for inheritance. Perhaps that's is how it will go for most people in the future, rent until you get inheritance, well half of it!

 

[Gammawolf]

Perhaps that's is how it will go for most people in the future, rent until you get inheritance, well half of it!

Pretty much this for many young people

 

[FL630]

Still reading all the replies here though, even if I can reply to everything of course. Really interesting the takes on the London area, from people in and out of the region. Taking another job isn't an option (I have my dream career), and my wish is to live in the London area for social, relationship and family reasons. My job can take me pretty much anywhere in the world but for this time in my life I certainly feel London is the right place to be.

Living in Edinburgh I've been a bit lax with the spending, just because it's cheap here and I can be. Perhaps it's just a case I'll need to budget hard for the next few years and I'll get by no problem.

I'm lost as to how People live. I'm a doctor 4 years into the pay scale and take home 2.5k per month. If I did not have other funds I would be really struggling to get by. The system is broken and these property prices have killed everyone's quality of life.

Well I'm glad I'm not the only one who is in this situation. My take home is a little more and my disbelief is what caused me to write this thread. Isn't it crazy that even well regarded and well paid professions such as Doctor (which I am not), Pilot (which I am) or Lawyer (which my better half is) can't reasonably afford property! That kind of sums up how bad it is. London just feels like a Banker's city now, especially in the nicer areas. I've got a few little ventures I'm working on which may bring me back a few hundred a month which I hope will top up the piggy bank enough to assist with the rent, but without that it's going to be tough.

 

[DAIR]

Yeah with more crazy homeless people on the streets! lol

Not as many tbf.

It's the seagulls that bother me. I'm now in a huge place. Which could easily go for a couple grand. Minimum in London.

 

[atpbx]

Obviously it's your call, but something must really bug you about the place if you can nonchalantly say no to some of those options.

Yes, I hate everything about the place, so its quite easy to say no. I left I job I absolutely loved because they were insisting I spent 18 months recovering sites in and around London.

Not my problem, thats Simons area, send him

They are asking for you, so we want you to go.

Very flattering, but no thanks.

We have already told the managers down there that you will be coming, the CEO has made the call.

Bye then.

 

[grudas]

I'm lost as to how People live. I'm a doctor 4 years into the pay scale and take home 2.5k per month. If I did not have other funds I would be really struggling to get by. The system is broken and these property prices have killed everyone's quality of life.

pretty crazy eh.

I'm leaving london and going horsham.

done with it, I mean I can afford to live here but I just dont see the benefit and I will be paying similar/more for rent in horsham but will actually have a more pieceful life there and more space/fresh air.

never liked london.

 

[dowie]

I'm lost as to how People live. I'm a doctor 4 years into the pay scale and take home 2.5k per month. If I did not have other funds I would be really struggling to get by. The system is broken and these property prices have killed everyone's quality of life.

4 years into the pay scale is like a 27 or 28 year old if following a conventional career progression, not really a drama for them to rent a 1 bedroom flat or even be in a flat share still. Still plenty of upside to progress to over the few years after that too... I mean not long for those going down the GP route to become fully qualified GPs, basically year 5 after med school right? Few more years for consultant positions for those staying in hospitals. So you're talking more like 70 - 80k. And plenty of them then go on to marry other doctors... and progress to more like 90-100k, each.. combined household income of 200k...

Though yeah, in the case of the medical profession, unless you're planning to cash in on private consultancy work or really like working in some specialist place then I suspect life would be better outside the capital as you still get that high wage and it goes much, much further...

 

[mid_gen]

I just bought a property in Raynes Park. It will take about 25 minutes to Waterloo on the train so the location is quite good but the only way I could afford to pay the deposit was because I work abroad and am able to save a lot. I did look at buying somewhere in Fulham but the apartment would have needed to be rented out for 1800 a month and I just couldn't see why anyone would pay that much in rent for a 1 bed, it's crazy!

I look at my friends who have great jobs but even for them it's going to be difficult to save a deposit , especially if they are renting.

Unfortuantely my sister will never be able to afford a property, she will have to wait for inheritance. Perhaps that's is how it will go for most people in the future, rent until you get inheritance, well half of it!

I was paying 1200 a month for a 1 bed in Barnes 7 years ago so it wouldn't surprise me at all if people are paying 1800 now.

I'm looking at the new builds in towns a 30 minute commute from the centre here. 3 bed house including cellar (mancave) for 250k EUR? Very close to doing it but in Germany for various reasons you need to be committing to 10years+ in a property, ideally for life. Got a few things to sort before I'm ready for that commitment.

 

[jaybee]

I would class paying half your net income in rent as very crazy

I've been doing it for a lot of my working life. Some of us have had to.

London pays well but unfortunately my train ticket is £5k per year. I commute 40 miles in.

 

[balky12]

Well I'm glad I'm not the only one who is in this situation. My take home is a little more and my disbelief is what caused me to write this thread. Isn't it crazy that even well regarded and well paid professions such as Doctor (which I am not), Pilot (which I am) or Lawyer (which my better half is) can't reasonably afford property! That kind of sums up how bad it is. London just feels like a Banker's city now, especially in the nicer areas. I've got a few little ventures I'm working on which may bring me back a few hundred a month which I hope will top up the piggy bank enough to assist with the rent, but without that it's going to be tough.

Where abouts you looking to live? Your scenario differs to mine as you're renting, and no idea how much that costs you.

However when my partner and I were looking to save we were on a little less than you each. Living at home helped (I was still paying £600 a month keep, which later helped furnish our house) and it took us two years of hard saving (£1000 a month between us and two years worth of bonus'). We have chosen to live just outside the m25... but now own a nice 3 bed-semi!

 

[regulus]

This thread inspired me to look at house prices in London for the first time in about 3 years. Can't say that it's changed much from what I remember as it's always been insane. Great place to live in my 20s and early 30s but I think I got out at just the right time (emigrated when I was 33). I vividly remember my last day in London leaving for New Zealand. I stayed in a hotel around the Marlybone area and had a walk around the area for a few hours to say 'goodbye'. Took the train to Heathrow the next morning and to this day not missed it for a second. It's said that if you're tired of London you're tired of Life. But I got tired of London and found a new lease on life moving out. I thought that living in smaller places would bore me - and it does, but so did London eventually.

But back to prices, I think anyone financially sensible and thrifty could quite easily live there but you'll have to be conscious of cost and hustling the whole time. That'll get tiring. A nice medium size city would the usual mod cons would do just as nicely.

 

[Eliot]

The place is mad. I have a part ownership on my flat of 25% ( i could by a very good house where i'm from for the same price.)

I agree qith what others are saying about London weighting, it's garbage. My view of costs has totally changed, I smile when a pint is £5.50. If i'm home and a pint is £4 I feel like i'm stealing and everyone else thinks we are getting ripped.

The fact is the place is expensive. All of it is expensive and its expensive for a number of reasons.

Big ones are this:
Parking? You are going to pay for it monthly
Shopping? You are going to be doing it in Sainsburys Local and Tesco Express. The prices in these mini supermarkets is always much more than a full size one and then theres the London tax on top
Not making your own lunch? Good luck getting one for less than a 6.50
The cinema?
An absolute killer, just go to the IMAX in Leicester Sq or Waterloo and do it properly. Two biggest screens in the UK, a mere 2 quid a ticket more than anywhere else at 18 quid.
Spend less than £40 on the cinema for two of you and you've done very well

You have to learn to accept it, the other thing I find, which you won't find anywhere else than London as far as I can tell, is a HUGE variance is salary from one job to the next, in the same industry, can even be between two jobs in the city.

If we use IT as an example, there are IT service desk jobs in London that pay 20k.
There are also IT service desk jobs in london paying 35k
To make it even more insane, there are contractors in London, on a service desk, earning 300 a day.

The same applies to other tiers in IT (Network jobs at 30 and at 65.)
There are no skill or experience differences in any of these examples.

You need to make sure you are on the upper end of the scale before it's livable I find.

Housing wise, rentals have lost the plot, my 25% ownership and rent scheme on a brand new flat, a One bedroom in Zone 2 is on the larger side,
Is costing me the same if not less monthly (yes there was a 20k deposit but its not out of reach for many) than I was paying for a single room studio in Dalston 3 years ago which is probably 1/3 the size.

 

[Jean-F]

I haven't read every post in the ten pages of this thread, but I've seen some horror stories of exorbitant rents, and/or fares for commuters, enough to make me think that no ordinary person could ever afford to live here.
Then I thought of at least three couples that I know, with jobs that are nothing out of the ordinary, certainly not in the medical/banking/legal professions, all three couples have two children each, two own their homes, one rents, and they all seem to be more than getting by, no idea how they can do it, and others can't.
One case in point is my younger son, when he quit the army, he got a job driving a large roll-on, roll-off dumpster truck for a family owned waste disposal outfit, he's a reliable guy with a good work ethic, the company appreciated him, and eventually gave him a fancy title, like logistics analyst or something, but he still drives a truck, I don't know for sure, but I'd guess that he's on £45k to £50k p.a.
His wife is a teaching assistant, no idea of her salary, but they've owned their own house in an outer north London leafy suburb for at least the past fifteen years, still paying for it, but at a pittance of a mortgage.
They have two cars, a 3 series BMW for my daughter-in-law, and a Smart car for my kid to go to work in.
They regularly have a couple of weeks in a villa with a pool in Portugal, with my two grandchildren, they're there now, so they're doing something right.

Of the other two couples, one, she 37, him 40, the guy works for a pest control firm, like Rentokil, his wife works in a bank on a three day per week job share scheme, they own their own home, and have two sons under twelve, but only holiday every other year, but always to Florida.
The last couple, both 41, the guy is a chef in a school, his wife the school secretary, go to them for dinner, and the fridge is loaded with decent wine, and always a couple of bottles of vodka in the freezer in case I show up.
Conversely, they often holiday in caravan parks in the U.K., but they spring for their two sons, 18 and 21 to go to Canada or Cyprus, or the Canaries for their holidays, 21 y.o. is at University, 18 y.o. has just started work.
So some people are not doing so bad I guess.

 

[dowie]

Big ones are this:
Parking? You are going to pay for it monthly
Shopping? You are going to be doing it in Sainsburys Local and Tesco Express. The prices in these mini supermarkets is always much more than a full size one and then theres the London tax on top
Not making your own lunch? Good luck getting one for less than a 6.50
The cinema?
An absolute killer, just go to the IMAX in Leicester Sq or Waterloo and do it properly. Two biggest screens in the UK, a mere 2 quid a ticket more than anywhere else at 18 quid.
Spend less than £40 on the cinema for two of you and you've done very well

These are all easily reduced IME


I own a property in zone 3 now (with secure parking space) but back a few years ago when I was renting in zone 1 and 2 (first Angel then Holloway) I was fine re: the above costs. Parking was just an annual residents permit from Islington council, shopping in Angel was at Sainsbury's (not a Sainsbury's local) and in Holloway at the big Waitrose on Holloway Road - occasionally at Morrisons or M&S further up the road.. no need for an express store (though they did later open a Tesco express too)



Cinema - Holloway Odeon for the latest films was circa £10 you could easily spend less than £40 for two at the cinema.

Screen on the Green in Islington was also £10 and better than any regular chain cinema - the toilets are just behind a door to the side of the screen so you don't waste too much time if you must go, there is a bar at the back, the chairs and big and super comfy with loads of leg room + for £2.50 extra per ticket you could get a two seater sofa instead (it has gone up now! - just checking the website and it is £15.60 for a regular ticket and £18.40 for a premier one... Holloway odeon is still cheap as though I'd wager Screen on the Green is still better value than the big commercial cinema in angle shopping centre, it certainly used to be)



as for lunch at less than £6.50 if you work in the city then you're missing out... temples is an awesome budget option, it isn't just for builders either, you'll find plenty of city lawyers and Bankers from the likes of Goldman in Temples at lunchtime:



There was also an independent sushi place that had stuff going for like £3.30, though sadly my office moved further away from that part of the city. Lastly there are small Tesco Express, Sainsbury's Local and Boots all over central London/the city all of which offer a meal deal for circa £3-something.

All this spending adds up... sure it is easy to spend a lot in London but you can certainly reduce it if you're sensible.

 

[Chris344]

So, I am originally from Manchester and moved to London with my then partner, now husband 9 years ago in the back of an emergency ambulance. We moved because he was diagnosed with a rare form of blood cancer and his parents wanted his treatment to be in London close to where they lived - they promised to support us in the interim. We were 23, had zero money and entry type jobs with the biggest life changing battle ahead.

Thankfully, we beat the cancer and he decided to change profession and become a Teacher. 9 years later he is now an Assistance Head Teacher at an outstanding secondary school and I’m a Manager at the FCA and before that the Bank of England - two amazing organisations to work for and experience. There’s no prouder moment when you are at your desk and we are on the news for the greater good.

London has served us well, we own a property in Bermondsey a few minutes walk to the tube station, my commute is 15 minutes (two stops on the tube to CW) and costs me £1.60 each way. We have a Golf R, we have a fantastic life and travel lots, last week we were in LA and next weekend Berlin. Joint income is around c£140k ex bonuses. But we started from the bottom at 25. We are both 33 now. Thus, can say that London has paid off.

However, we are getting tired of London, it is expensive, overcrowded and can be lonely as many good friends simply tend to move away at a moments notice.

We are considering moving out towards the Kent area and swapping the flat for a house. We were very lucky and managed to purchase our two bedroom flat with a substantial outside terrace for £300k in 2011, it’s now on the market for £699k.

London isn’t really affordable for the average joe. Not with the rental prices meaning people are unable to save - even on decent salaries.

 

[Dr House]

4 years into the pay scale is like a 27 or 28 year old if following a conventional career progression, not really a drama for them to rent a 1 bedroom flat or even be in a flat share still. Still plenty of upside to progress to over the few years after that too... I mean not long for those going down the GP route to become fully qualified GPs, basically year 5 after med school right? Few more years for consultant positions for those staying in hospitals. So you're talking more like 70 - 80k. And plenty of them then go on to marry other doctors... and progress to more like 90-100k, each.. combined household income of 200k...

Though yeah, in the case of the medical profession, unless you're planning to cash in on private consultancy work or really like working in some specialist place then I suspect life would be better outside the capital as you still get that high wage and it goes much, much further...

Very off topic but
5 or 6 years medical school
GP - 5 more years of training and you are on about 75k, insurance can be pricey at £1k per month
most other hospital doctors 9 more years of training, then you are on £76k, another 19 years as a consultant and you are on £103k (so that is around 28 years after you finish med school)

 

[dowie]

Very off topic but
5 or 6 years medical school
GP - 5 more years of training and you are on about 75k, insurance can be pricey at £1k per month
most other hospital doctors 9 more years of training, then you are on £76k, another 19 years as a consultant and you are on £103k (so that is around 28 years after you finish med school)

surely insurance is for locums - my friend was earning closer to 100k as a locum and only relatively recently qualified now she works for the practice she doesn't pay the insurance herself AFAIK, my sister is a consultant (again only recently got to that level) and I don't think it is going to take her 19 years to get to 103k, she's already got some options for private work that would put her past that level. Other benefit is that she's on a 40 hour per week contract which can be stacked as 4* 10 hour days and still count as 'full time' leaving an extra day per week to chill or to use for additional work etc.. whereas in most other jobs that would often only be counted as 4 days work.

I'm appreciate that it is a very hard job and requires a lot of stress and effort in the earlier stages and I don't mean to be dismissive of that aspect but following a 'normal' progression, once someone is out of their 20s it is rather well paid, which is why I guess a medical degree is frequently cited as having the highest paid grads on average.

 

[Dr House]

no everyone needs insurance, some surgeries pay for it for their stuff, as a hospital doctor I pay my own but it's only £500 a year.

Most do not do much if any private work and it's quite unusual as a newly qualified consultant but i guess some do.

It will take ages for the pay to creep up
https://www.bma.org.uk/advice/employment/pay/consultants-pay-england

anyway I will stop taking the thread OT