Soldato
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Without USA would us British people, definitely have been conquered ?
Or could we have defeated Hitler without them?
Or could we have defeated Hitler without them?
How vital for great Britain was America WW2?
- Thread starter nightrider1470
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Tough one - probably not conquered but I doubt we'd have defeated Hitler - more likely in the long run there would have been some kind of sue for peace I suspect.
I believe The Battle of Britain was largely ran logistically domestically and that took a lot of the wind out of the German's sails for an invasion which at the time with a still powerful, albeit depleted, Royal Navy wouldn't have a been an easy affair and "garage" industries were springing up to replace military equipment like rifles and machineguns and so on if it came to it (these were sidelined once supplies started coming in from the US, etc.).
In the end I think we'd have had to shrink and concentrate our empire to a more defensible configuration so as to be able to resupply and strengthen ourselves but the Germans would have been doing the same so I think in the end it would have likely turned into a stalemate on that front.
I believe The Battle of Britain was largely ran logistically domestically and that took a lot of the wind out of the German's sails for an invasion which at the time with a still powerful, albeit depleted, Royal Navy wouldn't have a been an easy affair and "garage" industries were springing up to replace military equipment like rifles and machineguns and so on if it came to it (these were sidelined once supplies started coming in from the US, etc.).
In the end I think we'd have had to shrink and concentrate our empire to a more defensible configuration so as to be able to resupply and strengthen ourselves but the Germans would have been doing the same so I think in the end it would have likely turned into a stalemate on that front.
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May aswell argue any potential hypothetical statement regarding the war if that is your question is about America's involvement..
No matter what happened, America would have been brought in to the war regardless. The biggest issue for the Germans, and the reason the third reich fell is down to Russia.
No matter what happened, America would have been brought in to the war regardless. The biggest issue for the Germans, and the reason the third reich fell is down to Russia.
If you've not watched it - Jeremy Clarkson did an excellent documentary on convoy PQ17 the Russian story would likely have been very different without those resupplies.
Caporegime
The German navy was no match for the royal navy hence why they needed to win the air war.
Which they lost.
Associate
Without the US financial and logistical aid we would probably have been 'conquered'.
We didn't have the numbers to go on the offensive and beat Hitler without the US (and more importantly Russia)
Yeah the numbers are ridiculous - We had a total of 65 carriers around WW2 if you include "escort" carriers and the likes to none on the German side and 19 battleship class vessels albeit some ageing/previous generation "battleships" to 4 on the German side. And that was after a decrease in investment in the Royal Navy.
EDIT:
Wikipedia said:
Soldato
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We wouldn't have defeated Hitler, he would have defeated himself, which is what he did anyway by ignoring advice from his generals, scientists and engineers
Battle of Britain was 1940, USA was not in the war at this stage it would be almost another year before Japan attacked Pearl Harbour and we were incredibly close to losing the Battle of Britain it was as much Hitlers ineptitude as it was our nations fighting spirit and heroism that won us that war which, had the Luftwaffe stuck to attacking our radar installations and airfields then we would have lost, but instead bombing switched to cities the Luftwaffe sustained too many losses and operation Sea Lion was put on hold indefinitely as Hitler decided to focus his sights to the Eastern front.
Had we lost the BoB then it would have quite easy for the Nazis to occupy and "conquer" our little island and would have freed up a whole front for the German invasion of Russia, which again the Nazi's came close to winning if only for the Russian winter, the Russian zerg and again.... Hitlers blinkered vision that his way was the only way
I don't think people realise just how close the war really was
German navy was actually superior to our own, a lot of our navy was WW1 era hulls modified for modern times whilst the Kriegsmarine had vastly superior modern Battleships and Battlecruisers but they were never utilized to full effect
It took 2 battleships (Rodney and King George V, 4 if you count the previous encounter with Hood and Prince of Wales) 2 heavy cruisers, a light cruiser, 6 destroyers and the Ark Royal to sink just the Bismarck and it was only because we got a lucky torpedo hit that took out her rudder leaving her sailing in a circle that let us kill her
Battle of Britain was 1940, USA was not in the war at this stage it would be almost another year before Japan attacked Pearl Harbour and we were incredibly close to losing the Battle of Britain it was as much Hitlers ineptitude as it was our nations fighting spirit and heroism that won us that war which, had the Luftwaffe stuck to attacking our radar installations and airfields then we would have lost, but instead bombing switched to cities the Luftwaffe sustained too many losses and operation Sea Lion was put on hold indefinitely as Hitler decided to focus his sights to the Eastern front.
Had we lost the BoB then it would have quite easy for the Nazis to occupy and "conquer" our little island and would have freed up a whole front for the German invasion of Russia, which again the Nazi's came close to winning if only for the Russian winter, the Russian zerg and again.... Hitlers blinkered vision that his way was the only way
I don't think people realise just how close the war really was
German navy was actually superior to our own, a lot of our navy was WW1 era hulls modified for modern times whilst the Kriegsmarine had vastly superior modern Battleships and Battlecruisers but they were never utilized to full effect
It took 2 battleships (Rodney and King George V, 4 if you count the previous encounter with Hood and Prince of Wales) 2 heavy cruisers, a light cruiser, 6 destroyers and the Ark Royal to sink just the Bismarck and it was only because we got a lucky torpedo hit that took out her rudder leaving her sailing in a circle that let us kill her
To be fair the UK still has arguably the 2nd or 3rd most powerful navy in the world, the recent Russian task force that came through the english channel towards syria was basically the best of the russian fleet.
Soon we will have two brand new carriers along with many destroys, battleships and subs.. I read somewhere that the HMS Dragon on a good day would be able to take on the Russian task squad on its own given the technological advantage it has over those ships. The UK has a VERY strong tactical position crowning europe (english channel to the south and the north sea to the north/east) this coupled with gibraltar basically means we can shut-down all enemies that intend to launch from european docks.
They had some individually very superior vessels - their battleships were cutting edge but they lacked the support infrastructure and air power (at times) to actually use them in any useful way - we still had the more powerful by far navy despite a good percentage of it being WW1 era stuff pulled kicking and screaming into a new generation of war.
We really screwed up IMO not investing more in those Type 45s - even though we are struggling with man power and skills. We also have one of the best integrated fire control systems in the world which gives a significant edge. Given the defensive power we can project with our navy it is mad it isn't invested in more.
EDIT: Regarding the HMS Dragon - IIRC that was combing the abilities of the ship with a number of Astute class fleet submarines in coordination.
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Soldato
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We had more numbers but I wouldn't say our navy was more powerful, we just utilised what we had to much greater effect
Not to mention had Hitler not changed off from plan Z instead of focusing efforts on U-Boat construction things would have been very different, the KM even had the Graf Zeppelin 85% complete and it could have been a game changer for the Nazis as we know how carriers completely changed the land(sea?)scape of naval warfare, that ship was laid in 1940 but halted and resumed in 42 but by then it was too late.
Same with V1/V2 production vs Me 262s and Horten 229's but by then that late it was also an issue of actual resources to build them.
On the other hand if they'd progressed more with a carrier program it would have been a bigger target to shutdown - albeit attacks against their ships in construction has a rather chequered story though generally we got there in the end.
Soldato
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We wouldn't have had an air force to strike their ship yards in this hypothetical alternative universe because we would have lost the BoB
Associate
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Wasn't that more down to Britain cracking the enigma?
If you change the rules enough anything is possible.
Don't forget that during the BoB, etc. the UK was making significant strides in signal interception such as Enigma mentioned above which directed their efforts somewhat - if the Luftwaffe had continued with or changed tactics we'd have adapted ours as well.
Soldato
That's what I thought. Where's the debate?
Minusorange your arguments are really not based on reality but a fantasy 'what if' scenario.
Similarly I have often pondered: What if the British had not, effectively, ignored Frank Whittle's Jet Engine designs in 1929? We could have been researching and solving the engineering issues of Jet propulsion for 9 years prior to the start of WW2
Associate
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Its always said that if the USA had stepped in earlier then the war would have been a lot shorter. If they stepped in later the war might have gone to them.
Soldato
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The RAF was at breaking point, had the Luftwaffles continued knocking out the Radars (which was key to fighter command being able to utilise what few aircraft they had to maximum effect) and airfields we would have crumbled and no advances in signal interception would have changed that
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52YOKT_O10U is a decent in depth analysis (The whole series is a great look at WW2 if you like that history) of how close we came to losing and the mistakes made by Goring and Hitler, it's really amazing how much defiance and resilience we showed in those long 3 months of the war and also how vital our victory was in the outcome of the war