In the end, Mercedes snookered RBR. There was nothing RBR could do to counter Hamilton after that last stop, but it relied on Hamilton being able to run twenty laps at absurd speeds, and make a quick pass on Verstappen. It was a strategy that RBR couldn't counter, but it only worked with a driver of Hamilton's calibre being able to execute.
Poll: Hungarian Grand Prix 2019, Budapest - Race 12/21
- Thread starter Shimmy
- Start date
Soldato
And what part of Bottas drive today was safe? He screwed up last weekend and screwed up this weekend. Bottas is a known entity, he'll keep Lewis honest but that's it. Ocon is somewhat unknown and surely deserves the chance to show what he can do.
Man of Honour
- Joined
- 21 Nov 2004
- Posts
- 46,153
Exactly. Bottas is a rear gunner, nothing more - and Hamilton doesn’t even need that currently. Ocon can fulfil that role, but can also become much more. If not, get max in the car.
Bottas is a huge liability st the moment. He qualifies ahead, but has absolutely no race pace and holds Hamilton up.
Soldato
- Joined
- 19 Jun 2012
- Posts
- 5,398
True, Bottas has gone off the boil in theast few races, but lets not forget the multiple merc 1/2's this season for which Bottas deserves his fair share of credit. He is also competing against arguably the best driver F1 has ever seen.
As with many things, uncertainty is the exact thing that will stay Mercs hand in relation to Ocon. Teams like Merc dont just take chances because it feels like the right thing to do. Its all data driven.
Associate
- Joined
- 3 May 2007
- Posts
- 2,029
Another good race, but for completely different reasons. All strategic.
As a red bull fan I have to admit Lewis and merc deserve that one.
Max and Lewis in a different league to the other drivers currently.
As a red bull fan I have to admit Lewis and merc deserve that one.
Max and Lewis in a different league to the other drivers currently.
Soldato
Race highlights: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnz-lc9LYgo
Caporegime
- Joined
- 18 Oct 2002
- Posts
- 33,188
It was also incredibly important that hamilton controlled the race early. He backed off early as he very often does, killed the pace a little then after letting some fuel out he started his relentless chase which pretty much lasted to the end. First stint he was pushing Verstappen faster and faster till his tires weren't feeling great and he pitted. Honestly RBR should have just stayed out and taken the difficulty, longer stints have worked almost everywhere this year.
Ham put in some great times while extending his early stint while Max was easing in his hards. RBR didn't react fast to to the speed with which Hamilton went on his 2nd and 3rd lap out of the pit while Max was going very slowly. It wasn't that HAmilton went truly absurdly fast because after those few laps Max sped up more than Hamilton slowed down, the team obviously thought it was a fight to the end and had track position so were saving tires.
Merc even told Hamilton to go slowly and come back at the end of the race so at this point they were clearly on a one stop. Then Hamilton did his kinda, okay you guys can think what you want but I'm gonna go win this race thing he does. Bam, 3 laps later he's in drs already and he almost makes the pass stick. His tires weren't gone and as Ham said after the race I believe had they stayed out he had superior tire wear, superior tire performance and would likely have multiple chances to make the pass. I think he probably wins if he stays out on the hards but also in pushing hard, catching up and not letting Max crawl through to the end he made sure Max's tire temps went up, defending more, going off line and putting a lot more wear into them. I think mostly it was that pushing and catching and subsequent battle that meant that Ham had the option of staying out and being a little faster or risking the stop and closing the gap but having way fresher tires by the end of the race. I think he wins either way but on not much newer hards it would have been several attempts at close moves that could end in disaster while the second stop made it a case of if he gets there he'll breeze past with the tire difference.
Gasly and Bottas's performance was embarrassing. I've not seen lots of replays of the wing damage but I still think he tags Ham and does the most damage and the Leclerc tap just helped end it. But Bottas definitely could have given Ham more room, it was already game over against him and he was in that position because he locked up badly in two freaking corners which is what let Hamilton get ahead and let the Ferrari's be all over him.
Even then he's 2 seconds a lap slower, but staying ahead of the Mclaren's who aren't fast enough to pass. Pitting that early was insane, not least because Bottas has horrendous tire life. Ham could have gone to the end on hards even from then, Bottas couldn't. His performance was utterly rubbish despite pushing. Behind a really slow ricciardo for half the race with a drastically faster car whose minor damage was all completely fixed... lol. If he stays out for 15 more laps he one stops and he comes out somewhere in midfield, instead he got stuck behind everyone and lost time passing everyone. Merc, Bottas or both screwed up that decision so badly but it still doesn't excuse his lack of performance. Gasly, same deal really except no compromise in strategy, joint/second fastest car, drove it like the 4th fastest car.
Good race though thanks largely to Max and Hamilton mixing it up.
Soldato
Aside from the front runners I was really impressed by Sainz and Russell this weekend. The former managed to beat a Red Bull home (admittedly one driven by a clown, but still) and the latter qualified well in the midfield and kept Stroll behind him all race. Norris also did well, but lost time with a dodgy pitstop and couldn't regain his position.
That bold part defeated your argument. Ocon is an unknown. Bottas is a decent enough driver to keep Hamilton honest on a good day and bring home solid points on ther other days. They've won the WCC for the last 6 years (including this one) and that's all they really care about. There is absolutely no reason for them to rock the boat by bringing in Ocon. At most they'll put him in a Williams or a Racing Point next year, otherwise his F1 career is done.
He can't lose what he never had. Gasly is an absolute joke. If he still has a seat after the summer break it just goes to show how poor the RB driver program is right now.
Caporegime
- Joined
- 18 Oct 2002
- Posts
- 33,188
Most of his performance are down to how fast the car is in qualifying, not his own general race performance. He was no where at all in Bahrain, he was being helped to stay ahead of the Ferrari's in China by being allowed to pit first ahead of Hamilton, eating away Hamilton's lead. Hamilton was literally cruising out front and just moving away from Bottas while Bottas was burning up tires trying to stay ahead of WAY slower Ferrari's there.
It's races like these that show his real performance, a bit of actual wheel to wheel racing, like last year, and he gets contact, screws up and does damage. Terrible tire wear here last year, and this year, poor performance throughout the race. It's not about beating Hamilton, he should have even here been able to fly past half the grid easily but got stuck behind what was a pretty damn slow Renault.
Soldato
I'd agree with most of that, but you can't blame Bottas for what happened to him today. Leclerc literally drove in to the side of him on the run to T4. If this had been the pre-Silverstone stewards Leclerc probably would have had a penalty.
Caporegime
- Joined
- 18 Oct 2002
- Posts
- 33,188
Russell did really well, but Sainz, meh. Lando was right on him, if they didn't screw up his pitstop he probably comes out and finishes right behind Sainz as well. Sainz's performance was good but really where the car was, it's just the 4th fastest car most tracks, a little slower at a couple, a little faster at some others.
I think Gasly's only 'overtakes' were Norris due to the pitstop error, and Kimi due to the undercut. Guy is a joke. Sainz didn't do particularly well to keep him behind as I don't think he made any defensive moves at all, Gasly is just really really weirdly timid about overtaking. Same in France and Canada, where Max blows past people Gasly just brakes early and won't even look at a guy and apparently his biggest issue with the car is that the car basically gives too much power on corner exit and he can't deal with the traction. Like, don't press the accelerator so hard, it's not rocket science. So he gets bad corner exits and is a big girl on braking. He gets stuck behind ridiculously slower cars all the time now.
Again there was nothing bad about Sainz's performance, solid and another really good start, just Gasly/Bottas being pathetic shouldn't really be mistaken for Sainz driving out of his skin.
Caporegime
- Joined
- 18 Oct 2002
- Posts
- 33,188
I mean he's at fault because if he was remotely fast and good enough, he'd have been ahead of Hamilton. Two lock ups in two corners is the only reason Leclerc is almost ahead. Leclerc obviously thinks he is ahead of Bottas at that point which well, he was only a few inches short of being so. It's not his fault Leclerc hit him but it's his fault Leclerc was nearly ahead of him and looking to get back to the racing line, because his performance was already sub par in only 20 seconds of racing.
Soldato
No it doesn't defeat my argument, like you said there's a clown in RB car 2, what if there isn't in a few races time? Bottas isn't good enough to make up for the lack of said clown if he's replaced and Merc know it. He made a complete turd of the last two races and if RB had two performing drivers Merc would be in a spot of bother right now.
Ocon is not a total unknown otherwise he wouldn't even be waiting in the wings.
Get rid of Bottas, get rid of Ghastly, these are surely the two most sure fire things over the summer break.
Permabanned
- Joined
- 2 Apr 2007
- Posts
- 1,038
replace with who though, Ocon is not totally unknown but to go from matching Perez is very different to matching Hamilton.
I honestly don't know who could replace Gasley.
Personally I think George Russell is looking very promising, but he's tied into a Williams contract.
Soldato
But Ocon is not a TOTAL unknown is he?
Kyvatt is clearly in the frame to replace ghastly, he's much improved and experienced since he was last there.
Russell will end up in Merc but not just yet, he's their star of the future.
Soldato
Did KMag get called to the Stewards for moving under braking again?
Associate
Vettel was anonymous watching the highlights. As I said pre-race they need to pull something out.
Ocon May well get the seat otherwise he’s 2 seasons out and risk stagnation
Ocon May well get the seat otherwise he’s 2 seasons out and risk stagnation
Caporegime
Merc aren't getting rid of Bottas. It was obvious he didn't deserve that seat before he got it, and he's done nothing but prove that point since he got it. Merc still stick with him. For whatever ready they're happier having him trundle round than giving the chance to someone else.
I think that's a shame.
Given comments from people within the team here and elsewhere, Gasly was a stopgap from the start but I think he's disappointed pretty much everyone's expectations. If there's a midseason change in the top teams, it'll be him. Kvyat getting a seat back after being undeservedly turfed from it a few seasons back would be an extraordinary story.
I was watching that again and it is really noticeable how Hamilton tries to tiptoe round Verstappen in Lap 38 avoiding any risk of Verstappen hitting him. Then obviously very conservatively overtakes Verstappen at the end.
I reckon any other driver he takes a different line in Turn 4 to overtake Verstappen on Lap 38.
https://youtu.be/jnz-lc9LYgo?t=165
Caporegime
- Joined
- 18 Oct 2002
- Posts
- 33,188
Nah, overtaking at turn 4 is just difficult, full stop. Against a significantly slower car it's easier. He did great in the previous corners to cut back and get a good entry into 3 and great exit. But the Verstappen hugged the inside early, made sure Ham had to go around the outside and Ham braked just a touch too late and couldnt' quite hold it. It wasn't Verstappen, mid corner there is just, you can feel the car is just about to go so he opens the steering and goes wide instead.
Verstappen has done plenty of good clean racing, but hard racing and it's nearly impossible to overtake a similar pace car on the outside there.
DOn't think the last overtake was conservative either. Verstappen again went inside, Ham had to go outside and if the guy on the inside, particularly on very old tires, understeers or locks up then you're screwed. He could have gone WAY wider to avoid a potential screw up and instead cut relatively close infront of him. Think Bottas screwing up badly on old tires last year and almost ruining Ricciardo's race.
With the performance difference that is the overtake everyone would have done at the end and in fact could have been a lot more conservative.
Verstappen has done plenty of good clean racing, but hard racing and it's nearly impossible to overtake a similar pace car on the outside there.
DOn't think the last overtake was conservative either. Verstappen again went inside, Ham had to go outside and if the guy on the inside, particularly on very old tires, understeers or locks up then you're screwed. He could have gone WAY wider to avoid a potential screw up and instead cut relatively close infront of him. Think Bottas screwing up badly on old tires last year and almost ruining Ricciardo's race.
With the performance difference that is the overtake everyone would have done at the end and in fact could have been a lot more conservative.