I have children; and a religious wife and parents in law.

Soldato
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No.


I think my posts are different to the way you imagine them to be.

I should have marked it like this

So you are arguing that a Scottish approach to moral education would be beneficial ;)?

I presume this was a joke, as it makes no sense otherwise. Was I wrong?

You're over thinking it. I'd be more worried about what they're told in school, especially in Scotland.

I was being ironic. You're words did seem to echo the mission statement of the Scottish education system. What is it you disagree with?
 
Soldato
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...
The key part is the way the organization rose to prominence, which was due to Irish immigration in the 19th century (the famine etc). Also later fueled by a fear of revolution i.e the sons of 19th-century immigrants who took part in W.W.1 returning to the slums of Liverpool, Glasgow, and Manchester with little prospects in life.

Was a general state of paranoia that a left-wing republican revolt was imminent in the U.K. in the aftermath of W.W1. The solution was thought to be, more hate and a big stick.

The famine had a much greater effect than it should due to a long history of economic and military oppression, and those combined caused the immigration. Not the famine on it's own.

It's hardly surprising that returning soldiers familiar with this history would be paranoid when they started to be outnumbered by those fleeing the situation in Ireland.

It just didn't make sense that people fleeing the famine would set up Orange Lodges. Which was how it read. I wasn't aware of this history in Liverpool and Scotland.
 
Soldato
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The government's recent inclusivity guidelines for schools.

Not familiar with that.

What is the issue? How does it differ from inclusivity and diversity guidelines in England? We both share U.K wide legislation here (the equalities act).
 

SPG

SPG

Soldato
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Its fine, just let them talk to the kids about it, you then talk/inform the kids about some other religion.. They will quickly catch on its a load of old Tosh my god is better than your god etc.
 
Soldato
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I think Christianity-lite is ok.

I had that in my schools growing up and I was never religious. I just treated them as stories.

As others have said. I'd be more worried about what is taught in schools rather than of close relatives who you have some degree of control.
 
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Aren't you yourself indoctrinated to believe your way of life is superior to their belief...?

You can receive great value from religion without being a "zealot". Having you there to temper it and provide a more "grounded" view is excellent. Why not try to take the best from religion with it's positive morale framework, community, and social interaction from a young age while also providing scientific tools to help question what is a fable and what is real?

Religion is amoral, so it can't have a moral framework of any kind. Calling obedience to self-declared authorities "morality" doesn't make it so, although it's an enduringly popular deception. That's not limited to religion (e.g. it's part of communism, especially Chinese communism) but it's endemic in religion.

Community and social interaction isn't about religion, although of course any group can provide both.

If religion was a new invention there would be an age limit on it (or it would be banned entirely). "Not suitable for children" is a reasonable position to take on potentially harmful things.
 
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Since the OP has married a religious women, and enjoys the company of his mother/father in law, this made me infer that the congregation that he would likely take his children to is welcoming and a positive group with little hang ups. By him being "grounded" he could help his children take the best from the local community no? Many of the stories in the bible are, as Tefal points out, horrific and no longer relevant, but others hold positive messages.

I really do not see the need to cut out an entire community on the basis you both provide although I can understand why you would wish to so.
 
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I realise this may be a futile attempt to discuss something that I am already highly prejudiced about. However, it's a critical aspect of my life (and my children's lives), and I'd like to gauge the general opinion of this messageboard. I've seen this place swing from hard right in the past, to now where a poll is vaguely representative of Scottish independence. I think I can trust the opinion of people here.

My wife is religious. I am not. Before I met my wife I would have described myself as an anti-theist. In fact I still do, but I have softened my approach.

My parents in law are the absolute epitomy of the soft, Anglican church-goer (albeit their church is the Scottish equivalent). They are wonderful people, and I am so grateful to have them.

I am worried however. I want my children to grow up without indoctrination. I want them to be able to make an informed decision based on reality, not on stories. At the same time, I can't (and would never) try to prevent them from being with their grandparents. In fact the opposite; it's critically important that they have time with them.

They are not the proselitysing kind, but they also (and I include my wife in this) don't recognise that their stories are a form of indoctrination.

Am I over thinking this? Would be grateful to hear opinions from all angles.

Thanks
Pack them up and send them all of to church, enjoy the peace and quiet at home. The kids will figure it out quick enough, religious people are religious and the none religious are none religious, no point forcing the issue as they will self right themselves at some point.
 
Man of Honour
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Since the OP has married a religious women, and enjoys the company of his mother/father in law, this made me infer that the congregation that he would likely take his children to is welcoming and a positive group with little hang ups. By him being "grounded" he could help his children take the best from the local community no? Many of the stories in the bible are, as Tefal points out, horrific and no longer relevant, but others hold positive messages.

I really do not see the need to cut out an entire community on the basis you both provide although I can understand why you would wish to so.

The main point both Tefal and myself were addressing was your claim that religion provides a positive moral framework. Which it doesn't and can't. That's not what religion is for or about.

It's possible for some theists to adopt the pick 'n' mix approach to their religion that you suggest and thus impose their own moral framework on their religion, but that's morality in spite of religion and not because of it.
 
Soldato
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I am worried however. I want my children to grow up without indoctrination.

Think about the positive moral teachings of most Christian churches. Despite what some in this thread say they are mostly positive. Love they neighbour & all that. (I'm not touching other religions.)
 
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The West coast of Scotland due to historical movement of people from N. Ireland has more religious bigots than any other area of the country. Orange marches etc. Only cities like Liverpool which again historically had a large Irish influx have OM. The seperate education system in Scotland with Catholic and Protestant schools dates back to the beginning of the last century. Bringing up sections of the population in different education modes inevitably leads to bigotry. It is getting better now but the problem will never go away until this practice is abolished.

On a whole its Catholic and non-denominational (cater to all) schools in Scotland, rest of it is fairly accurate and agree segregated schooling should be abolished.
 
Soldato
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And even the Catholic schools will take in anyone. Most seem to be Catholic in name only unless they happen to be in a sad region of bigotry.
 
Don
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Not familiar with that.

What is the issue? How does it differ from inclusivity and diversity guidelines in England? We both share U.K wide legislation here (the equalities act).
They allow children as young as 4 to self identify their “gender” and the schools have to go along with it (and not tell the parents).

It’s all kicking off now the SNP are in a deal with the Greens. They intend to push through in the next year the previously binned GRA that would allow people to legally self-identify their sex.
 

SPG

SPG

Soldato
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And even the Catholic schools will take in anyone. Most seem to be Catholic in name only unless they happen to be in a sad region of bigotry.

Yes, but if your Catholic you jump to the front of the line. I know people who converted just to get into the school, as it was a good school :)
 
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The main point both Tefal and myself were addressing was your claim that religion provides a positive moral framework. Which it doesn't and can't. That's not what religion is for or about.

It's possible for some theists to adopt the pick 'n' mix approach to their religion that you suggest and thus impose their own moral framework on their religion, but that's morality in spite of religion and not because of it.
That's great. I see we both agree on my answer to OPs actual question. :)
 
Soldato
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...


The famine had a much greater effect than it should due to a long history of economic and military oppression, and those combined caused the immigration. Not the famine on it's own.

It's hardly surprising that returning soldiers familiar with this history would be paranoid when they started to be outnumbered by those fleeing the situation in Ireland.

It just didn't make sense that people fleeing the famine would set up Orange Lodges. Which was how it read. I wasn't aware of this history in Liverpool and Scotland.

The soldier's thing I think comes from orange order historians. Its growth occurred in the 19th century, most notably in Scotland. Economic migration of Irish protestants. The lodge has and had a distinct Irish focus.

It gave Irish protestants migrating to work in cities a distinct sense of identity. Never fully endorsed by the Scottish establishment.

Paranoia about mixed marriages, immigration, education, and the breakdown of society. It's thought its big period of growth occurred between the wars, period of austerity, and mass unemployment (it was offering a particular solution based on the fear of catholic immigration which it increasingly viewed as tied to the communist menace).

It started life as a secret society run by the Irish Church and Anglo/ Irish landowners. But by the time it grows, it's a very different organization, largely working-class and Conservative-leaning.

Really the result of successive waves of Irish Protestant migration to Scotland for economic reasons and the desire to maintain a distinct cultural and political identity.

Although you can see why a Conservative-leaning organization would not describe itself in these terms.
 
Soldato
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The soldier's thing I think comes from orange order historians. Its growth occurred in the 19th century, most notably in Scotland. Economic migration of Irish protestants. The lodge has and had a distinct Irish focus.

It gave Irish protestants migrating to work in cities a distinct sense of identity. Never fully endorsed by the Scottish establishment.

Paranoia about mixed marriages, immigration, education, and the breakdown of society. It's thought its big period of growth occurred between the wars, period of austerity, and mass unemployment (it was offering a particular solution based on the fear of catholic immigration which it increasingly viewed as tied to the communist menace).

It started life as a secret society run by the Irish Church and Anglo/ Irish landowners. But by the time it grows, it's a very different organization, largely working-class and Conservative-leaning.

Really the result of successive waves of Irish Protestant migration to Scotland for economic reasons and the desire to maintain a distinct cultural and political identity.

Although you can see why a Conservative-leaning organization would not describe itself in these terms.

When you say Irish Protestants and Irish Church what do you mean. Or for that matter anglo-Irish.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Irish_people
 
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