I have children; and a religious wife and parents in law.

[Tefal]

Since the OP has married a religious women, and enjoys the company of his mother/father in law, this made me infer that the congregation that he would likely take his children to is welcoming and a positive group with little hang ups. By him being "grounded" he could help his children take the best from the local community no? Many of the stories in the bible are, as Tefal points out, horrific and no longer relevant, but others hold positive messages.

I really do not see the need to cut out an entire community on the basis you both provide although I can understand why you would wish to so.

Yes people saying they want me dead in print but then going "nooo look as long as you ignore the bits where we say evil stuff we're actually lovley"

Also I'm not alowed to use the facilities but have to subsidise them via tax and I have to be governed by the Lords spiritual because their religion literally makes them more entitled in our society than me does erk me somewhat.

I really do not see the need to cut out an entire community

Can you tell that to them? I mean would be nice to get married in the same place the rest of my family did but sadly the church cut out my entire community....

Like how the BNP are actually all a lovley and inclusive group if you just ignore the xenophobia

 

[Tefal]

That's great. I see we both agree on my answer to OPs actual question.

Yes Christians are moral as long as theyarent christian

 

[OspreyO]

And even the Catholic schools will take in anyone. Most seem to be Catholic in name only unless they happen to be in a sad region of bigotry.

I know nothing about Scotland. But RC schools and their Admissions policy is about religion. Ok all region is on some level bigoted. But it's an entirely different type of bigotry than is practiced in specific geographical regions, which is as much about politics as anything else.

I don't agree with religion in state funded schools. But I don't think most kids will attend a RC school and start the next crusade on graduation.

 

[gailjon]

You are over thinking it. Many people my age (mid 40's and older) were brought up with religion in schools for example and we're not religious any more than younger people. People can grow up and make their own minds up.

I do find it patronising though to hear people talk about 'fairy stories'. They are part of someones faith and they deserve some respect as ways to impart values and behaviour, in the way that all religion does. Perhaps do ron ron needs to act on his own words and looo at what is really happening in Scottish education and religion rather than criticise.

 

[OspreyO]

Yes Christians are moral as long as theyarent christian

Moral are just a set of beliefs. They aren't the same for everyone.

 

[SPG]

You are over thinking it. Many people my age (mid 40's and older) were brought up with religion in schools for example and we're not religious any more than younger people. People can grow up and make their own minds up.

I do find it patronising though to hear people talk about 'fairy stories'. They are part of someones faith and they deserve some respect as ways to impart values and behaviour, in the way that all religion does. Perhaps do ron ron needs to act on his own words and looo at what is really happening in Scottish education and religion rather than criticise.

No, when your belief is based on a lie then it deserves criticism. We do the same to flat earthers it's no different.

 

[EdwardTeach]

I mean would be nice to get married in the same place the rest of my family did but sadly the church cut out my entire community....

Sorry to be obtuse, but which community are you referring to?

 

[OspreyO]

No, when your belief is based on a lie then it deserves criticism. We do the same to flat earthers it's no different.

Well the theory being proposed is that if you go to a faith school you'll be indoctrinated. Since the numbers of Christians is rapid decline. Can't be many being indoctrinated.

The European Social Survey, carried out between 2014 and 2016, found that 70% of people between 16 and 29 were not religious.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rel...9 Special Eurobarometer,% Jews, fewer than 1%

 

[rawuk]

Snip x2

Ah, I think I understand your position a bit better now. Thank you for sharing. I am sorry that you have experienced such negative trauma.

 

[efish]

When you say Irish Protestants and Irish Church what do you mean. Or for that matter anglo-Irish.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Irish_people

Anglo Irish = the Anglican elite a minority who in large part ruled Ireland.

Irish church = Church of Ireland (Anglican)

Irish protestant, it's pretty self-explanatory I think.

The Orange Order was originally controlled by the church of Ireland and Anglo/ Irish landowners (Anglican). Set up in 1795. Its thought to have played a significant role in putting down the rebellion of 1798.

This was a republican revolution. Started by Presbyterian radicals influenced by the French and American revolution. A united republican Ireland. Ireland was governed by an Anglican minority with close associations with England which the Presbyterian protestant radicals were not happy about.

Catholic population also joined, you could say that republicanism was learned from radical Presbyterian's who had fought in America's civil war and returned home (that would be the romantic spin).

When the Order really took off particularly in the 19th century (when it spread to Scotland), it was a very different organization, which now included large numbers of Presbyterians (despite the past history of 1795), also lost its original association with ruling elites becoming more of a working-class thing.

Irish protestant is used as it was large numbers of Irish protestants emigrating back to Scotland that brought the orange order to Scotland. It also maintained and still maintains a strong 'Irish protestant identity.'

It served as a focus for Irish protestant identity in Scotland, the early 20th century saw successive waves of Irish protestant immigrants, for them and their Scottish-born kids, the order and other organizations (apprentice boys/ Glasgow Ulster association etc. etc.) helped them foster a sense of themselves and where they came from and who they are.

 

[OspreyO]

I think its important to be specific.

Because this...

The West coast of Scotland due to historical movement of people from N. Ireland has more religious bigots than any other area of the country. Orange marches etc. Only cities like Liverpool which again historically had a large Irish influx have OM. The seperate education system in Scotland with Catholic and Protestant schools dates back to the beginning of the last century. Bringing up sections of the population in different education modes inevitably leads to bigotry. It is getting better now but the problem will never go away until this practice is abolished.

Did not originate from Irish diaspora, but a subset of Irish descendants of colonists and/or soldiers from Great Britain & Scotland emigrating back.
So you have trace back to the root cause of why education was was split in the first place. It didn't just spring up from nothing.

In historical context the rebellion was in 1798, famine in 1845. If you consider current events, the First Anglo-Afghan War was 1839 to 1842. It is of its time, etc.

I didn't know about the Orange order in Scotland or Liverpool before its was brought up in this thread. Fascinating History.

 

[Tefal]

Sorry to be obtuse, but which community are you referring to?

Like Jesus my love is less conditional

 

[Tefal]

Moral are just a set of beliefs. They aren't the same for everyone.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58420270

I need it seems to religious organisations sexually abusing children is more important than. Thier reputation.

Leaders discouraged reporting abuse to protect reputations, the report found.

It said the religious leaders also blamed victims for their abuse, and relied on religious dogma when responding to allegations.

As an atheist it's such a weird morality to try an grasp for me

 

[OspreyO]

Oddly enough criminality and other such crimes and abuses are also carried out by atheists. So how does morality come into that.

These conversations always revert to sweeping generalizations. Someone will invoke
Godwin's law next.

 

[Angilion]

Yes Christians are moral as long as theyarent christian

I think that's over-stating the case somewhat.

My view is that religion is amoral. Also weird and dangerous, but the morality thing is what's relevant here. So theists either project their own morality onto their religion or choose someone else's morality to project onto their religion. The guts of Christianity are (a) belief in the Abrahamic god as the one and only god and (b) belief that Jesus is the messiah. Those are the absolute requirements. So, for example, I've known Christians who are fine with homosexuality because Jesus didn't say anything about it. Christian churches have been ranting about it for centuries, but they're not the messiah. I've known Christians who've never been in a church except maybe for weddings and funerals. They believe, really believe, that their god is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. So they see no difference between any location.

Oddly enough criminality and other such crimes and abuses are also carried out by atheists. So how does morality come into that.

It doesn't. Atheism makes no claim to being morality. It's as amoral as religion but much more honest about it.

 

[OspreyO]

I ....Atheism makes no claim to being morality. It's as amoral as religion but much more honest about it.

I can't agree. The are lots of people who have no belief in god but have a sense of right and wrong. There are philosophies which do the same with no reference to God or religion.

Religion and morality are not synonymous. Though religion may depend on morality,[2] and even develop alongside morality,[3] morality does not necessarily depend upon religion, despite some making "an almost automatic assumption" to this effect.[4][page needed] ........ Conceptually and in principle, morality and a religious value system are two distinct kinds of value systems or action guides.

.

Ironically this conversation isn't morality. But about dogma. Something many religions and atheists share. It's a belief in wanting a school, education a certain way.

 

[Angilion]

I can't agree. The are lots of people who have no belief in god but have a sense of right and wrong. There are philosophies which do the same with no reference to God or religion. [..]

You're disagreeing with something I didn't say.

I said that atheism makes no claim to being morality.

I did not say that all atheists are amoral.

Two very different things.

I am an atheist. I have a code of morals. That does not mean that atheism is morality.
I like porridge. I also like coffee. That does not mean that porridge is coffee.

 

[OspreyO]

We were talking about religion in schools.

For some reason "people" brought morality into it. Thus associating religion (or the lack of religion ) with morality. Thats the context.

As neither religion or atheism are synonymous with morality. There is no reason to mention morality unless to infer assocation. Of course that's what religion tries to do. So there's an irony here.

That said this thread was about religion in schools. So if people believe children will leave indoctrinated then don't put them in that school. If you already believed that, why ask the question in the first place. It's not like people are going to be persuaded otherwise.

I'm not saying that to be critical. But be a realist. How likely is it that someone opposed to religion will be persuaded to be happy with a religious school. Unlikely I would say.

 

[Mr Badger]

You're disagreeing with something I didn't say.

I said that atheism makes no claim to being morality.

I did not say that all atheists are amoral.

Two very different things.

I am an atheist. I have a code of morals. That does not mean that atheism is morality.
I like porridge. I also like coffee. That does not mean that porridge is coffee.

This is Speaker's Corner and when responding to such a post it is compulsory to issue the ancient challenge of "strawman".

Aside from that I agree with your points. To use the famous quote “With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion.”

 

[OspreyO]

I just think it's human nature.

Religion is no different to any hierarchical organisation that is powerful, dominant. Power, corruption. etc.

I think it's overstating the case that its 100% corrupt and abusive. Especially in schools which was the inference. I don't think it should be schools today though. But I don't think it's has the influence on kids that's people are suggesting either.

But if people don't want anything to do with it, I understand why, and think you have that choice.