I have children; and a religious wife and parents in law.

Soldato
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I do find it patronising though to hear people talk about 'fairy stories'. They are part of someones faith and they deserve some respect as ways to impart values and behaviour, in the way that all religion does. Perhaps do ron ron needs to act on his own words and looo at what is really happening in Scottish education and religion rather than criticise.

I am a retired Scottish school teacher and you?
 
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This is Speaker's Corner and when responding to such a post it is compulsory to issue the ancient challenge of "strawman".

Aside from that I agree with your points. To use the famous quote “With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion.”

I think religion is the most effective type of ideology for getting good people to do evil things, but not the only one.
 
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[..] I do find it patronising though to hear people talk about 'fairy stories'. They are part of someones faith and they deserve some respect as ways to impart values and behaviour, in the way that all religion does. [..]

I absolutely disagree. Political ideologies should not be automatically respected solely because they claim superhuman authority. They should be judged on merit. Or lack thereof.
 
Soldato
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Faith is closer to culture than it is to politics. Though it's obviously been intertwined with both at times.

Religion is a social-cultural system of designated behaviors and practices,
 
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Am I over thinking this? Would be grateful to hear opinions from all angles.

I think so.

I met my future wife when we were both 14/13 (1972) in a Church and then two years later started going out with each other.
By the time we got married in 1980 we were both Atheists and got married in a registry office to my Mother's disgust.
Kids came along and we didn't Christian them much to my Mother's disgust.
We knew that when they were at my mum's she was sometimes taking them to the Church over the road but since we let them believe in Santa & the Easter Bunny it wasn't a problem.
When they were older a conversation came up where my girls went quiet and then admitted their Nan had had them Blessed when they were around 9/7 and they thought I'd be upset but i just laughed.
At the end of the day the pair of them have zero interest in religion and so does my Nephew who was Nanny reared by my Mum and went to a Catholic school for a better education.
Kids make their own minds up and even though I'm one of the biggest atheists it isn't important, I'm more concerned with one of my daughters being vegan.
 
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It seems very rare when kids aren't 'subjected' to religion they actually become religious. I mean I actually only know one religious person in my friendship group. And it totally makes sense. I didn't know for ages. But she's one of those people you can completely understand is when you know.

Ugh religion, as said, it's just another system of control.
I couldn't date anyone practicing religion. It's just too opposing to my views.
 
Soldato
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It seems very rare when kids aren't 'subjected' to religion they actually become religious. I mean I actually only know one religious person in my friendship group. And it totally makes sense. I didn't know for ages. But she's one of those people you can completely understand is when you know....

Have to say I don't know if most of my friends are religious or not. None of my business.

I think how do you know if someone religious or atheist, is like that joke. How do you know if someone is a Mac user....they tell you.
 
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Have to say I don't know if most of my friends are religious or not. None of my business.

I think how do you know if someone religious or atheist, is like that joke. How do you know if someone is a Mac user....they tell you.

I know most aren't (well I assume) due to some of the conversations we've had about religion!

But yes! There could be a few covert ones!
 
Soldato
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I don't think I've ever had a religious conversion with most (if any) of my friends either.
 
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Don't you think that deep down no one can believe in a god, because it defies logic?

Everyone wants to hedge their bets, but at the end of the day some aspects are not physically possible. I try to live my life in a reasonable fair to others way, but up not going to waste my resources trying to save the world, hopefully God will be happy with that, if he exists he probably hates religious nuttas.
 
Soldato
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I've always though of Atheism as being as much faith based as religious belief. The genuinely open mind being agnostic.

All I can say is probably the 4 or 5 best people I know are devout Anglicans, I don't know their motivations but I can't question their behaviour. I can't say I know many nasty Anglicans, I'm sure some exist. I know a few ********* who claim to be atheist like it gives them a right to be rude.

Can't remember who said it but heard someone say recently "don't make your beliefs your identity" sounded like fairly good advice in this day and age.
 
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Don't you think that deep down no one can believe in a god, because it defies logic? [..]

No, I don't think that. Belief doesn't require logic. Belief isn't a logical position.

I've always though of Atheism as being as much faith based as religious belief. The genuinely open mind being agnostic. [..]

That depends on how you choose to define "atheism" and how you choose to define (or redefine) "agnostic".

I choose to stick with the orginal definition of "agnostic", as given by the person who created the word (Thomas Huxley). I think it's wrong to make up a different meaning and over-write the original meaning with it. I think people who want a word with a different meaning should make up their own word for that meaning.

Agnosticism is a philosophical position on the nature of truth. It's the idea that a person shouldn't claim something to be objectively true unless they have sufficient objective evidence to justify that claim. It's not a religious position and it's not limited to being a position on religion. I am agnostic about (amongst many other things) the existence of people elsewhere in the universe, which team will win the next world cup, whether it will rain here a week on Monday...many, many things.

I think the meaning of "atheism" is more debateable because it comes down to both linguistics and functionality.

i) Linguistics. The roots are 'a' ("without"), 'theos' ("gods") and 'ism' ("ideology"). But how do you combine those roots? Is it "no ideology of gods" or "ideology of no gods"? Two quite different meanings.
ii) Functionality. How much does (i) matter anyway? By the original meaning of the word (not being a follower of the ancient Greek religion), almost everyone alive today is an atheist. Maybe the right question is one of what it would be most useful for the word 'atheism' to mean.

I think it's best to have more clarity in meaning by specifying things more clearly rather than mashing different meanings into the same word and hoping people realise which meaning you intended. So I describe my position as agnostic atheism. I don't have any belief in gods and I don't claim to know the objective truth about the existence or non-existence of any particular god (or gods in general) because I'm not aware of compelling objective evidence either way.
 
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Oddly enough criminality and other such crimes and abuses are also carried out by atheists. So how does morality come into that.

These conversations always revert to sweeping generalizations. Someone will invoke
Godwin's law next.


Humans are human.


Like all animals some conform some do not?
 
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I find it bizarre that someone who describes themselves as "anti-theist" to the point of worrying that their children will be indoctrinated, would marry someone who is religious; because religions and ideologies generally represent fundamental underlying values.
 
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I find it bizarre that someone who describes themselves as "anti-theist" to the point of worrying that their children will be indoctrinated, would marry someone who is religious; because religions and ideologies generally represent fundamental underlying values.

Because people don't work on pure logic. (And neither for that matter does love).
 
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Because people don't work on pure logic. (And neither for that matter does love).

It's not really about working on logic though, I get people fall for the "wrong type" etc all the time, understandably, but having different values tends to result in dysfunctional relationships in my albeit limited observations. When children are involved even moreso because as this thread describes there's a conflict in the values you want to instil into your children.

Like I could never get into a relationship with a statist like a conservative, it just wouldn't work, I'd be living a life that they disagree with because I defy the state's laws and arguments would ensue.
 
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Wow! I was a little bit drunk, and questioning my ability as a parent. I thought I'd throw out my situation and expected a handful of replies. I'm really amazed and enthused by the discussion that has since taken place. I will read every post, but I thought I'd start by replying to certain cherry-picked posts from page 1.

You're over thinking it. I'd be more worried about what they're told in school, especially in Scotland.

I know there was some backlash to Zefan's comments here...I think the comment is fair enough.

I grew up in the west (near Helensburgh), and parental religion was a defining factor in which school a child attended. I'm not sure how things are today...it's 20 years of supposed progression...and the catholic school has been demolished (last time I drove by anyway).

This is exactly what I don't want my children to experience.

What a completely ignorant statement. I don't know what school you went to but schools teach religious tolerance these days. As to why you think that is any different in Scotland, I don't know.

I love Scotland. It's absolutely time we faced our demons though. As a supporter of independence I'm eager to see the good side. We need to focus on the bad side.

Get your children to question everything. Mainstream education already does some of this and the new curriculum in Scotland is good. Religion in Scotland can be toxic, especially in parts of the West of the country, but that is usually to do with the brand of fairy story to believe in. Education is the key and as for the usual bigotted views on Scottish education I suggest you go and educate yourself and stop believing the tales in your tabloid.

I appreciate your perspective. It is fully my intention to raise my children to question everything..including my own atheism. Having grown up in the west of Scotland, I am well aware of the challenges presented.

I'm not sure if the comment about educating myself was directed at me/us? If it was, I would end this post by stating that I have a masters in engineering, and my wife is a qualified solicitor.
 
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Aren't you yourself indoctrinated to believe your way of life is superior to their belief...?

You can receive great value from religion without being a "zealot". Having you there to temper it and provide a more "grounded" view is excellent. Why not try to take the best from religion with it's positive morale framework, community, and social interaction from a young age while also providing scientific tools to help question what is a fable and what is real?

A lack of belief is not indoctrination... It is the default state of the human brain. Belief (of anything) is the state of indoctrination.

I'm not sure what nerve I've touched here, I wasn't referring to religion at all :p

PlacidCasual and Jokester picked up on my intent. I could have been clearer I suppose!


Agreed, as a teenager I had such a violently scientific anti-theist outlook that I truly threw the baby out with the bathwater. While I remain not religious, I find it impossible to avoid the truth some of these ancient stories speak. They can contain such profound meaning and offer insight in to finding one's own, something I feel the modern west could do with more of.



Agreed with the first part of your post completely. Questioning everything is key. I find I've even had to coach colleagues on this, how it skipped past the parents I have no idea. Is the second part of your post referring to me? I didn't know that people had "bigotted" views about religion in Scotland :confused:

While I can't speak to finding some deeper meaning in the wilds of eastern philosophy, I can say that my approach to the gentile Anglican religion has softened.

So you are arguing that a Scottish approach to moral education would be beneficial?



source

religious and moral education, principles and paractice. Scot. Gov. U.K.

I think the way education works here is different to the way you imagine it to be.

Let's not pretend it's not something that it is. There is still an abhorent divide between "Protestants" and "Catholics" in Scotland.

You won't have a say your wife will control everything.

Hmmm.

Don't worry about it, I attended Sunday school when I was younger, as soon as I was old enough to decide for myself I told them I wanted to stop going.
As long as you teach them that its all just stories and not true then they'll soon decide if they want to continue with it or not.

Your premise is that you were able to decide for yourself. That guarantee is not there for my kids.
 
Soldato
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..

Your premise is that you were able to decide for yourself. That guarantee is not there for my kids.

Isn't that up to you though. Ultimately its up to the parent to decide what school their school attends, or doesn't (home schooling).
 
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