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I have children; and a religious wife and parents in law.

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by Illgresi, 22 Aug 2021.

  1. Tefal

    Capo Crimine

    Joined: 30 Jun 2007

    Posts: 68,372

    Location: Wales

    All animals are inconsistent.
     
  2. 413x

    Capodecina

    Joined: 13 Jan 2010

    Posts: 23,480

    Location: Llaneirwg

    I definitely couldn't date someone religious.
    As someone else said I think they will be uld just be too many differences.
     
  3. GR63

    Wise Guy

    Joined: 28 May 2021

    Posts: 1,016

    Location: Herts

    I think I'd have considered this issue and discussed with potential wife before she became actual wife. Check compatibility with views etc

    Personally, I'd agree that you both present your views and allow them to decide.
     
  4. DanTheMan

    Mobster

    Joined: 11 Oct 2005

    Posts: 4,578

    Location: Manchester, UK

    I never grew up with any sort of religion, except attending the occasional mass with my friend, whose mum was Catholic. My wife is christened and wanted the same for our daughter. I don't particularly care either way, I think it's far more important to raise kids to question things, irrespective of the religion they may have been raised around.

    We actually ended up attending church quite frequently since my daughter was 2, as we moved house and the church plays quite a big part in a lot of the social events where we live. I can only speak for the Church of England services that we attend but it's certainly pretty light touch when it comes to forcing religion down your throat.

    I actually have come to enjoy going to services from a spiritual perspective. No particular religious bias, its just nice to contemplate and reflect on your own life and existence in general for an hour a week. I think as long as religion is used primarily as moral guidance, there's no harm in it. As long as your in laws aren't trying to shove hardcore religious 'facts' down your kid's throat, it should be fine.
     
  5. Ross Thomson

    Wise Guy

    Joined: 7 Nov 2017

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    What kind of stories?

    I'm guessing they don't go to church etc.

    When your kids ask you questions tell them the truth. If someone dies then explain exactly what happens.
     
  6. Ross Thomson

    Wise Guy

    Joined: 7 Nov 2017

    Posts: 1,400

    SNP don't make out Scotland not to be part of the UK. Its the complete opposite. Religious education in both England and Scotland optional. You as a parent can opt your child out of it. religious and moral education (RME) provides a wide cultural education. It does not say that god is real rather it describes the different religions.
     
  7. Ross Thomson

    Wise Guy

    Joined: 7 Nov 2017

    Posts: 1,400


    If an adult believed in Santa Claus would you feel the same way? Religions are a bunch of fairy stories made up because of man's ignorance of science. A way to control and have power/money. The religion and god you have faith in is purely down to where you were born. There have been 3000+ "gods" since the dawn of man. With the invention of monotheism, we are one god closer to getting rid of religion for good. Values and morals have nothing to do with religion thankfully.
     
  8. do_ron_ron

    Capodecina

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    It is also true that religions are stronger in countries with little/poor education.
     
  9. Mr C

    Wise Guy

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    Except the US, in this regard they are an outlier. Outside of that particular example, the statement is correct.

    https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2015/05/15/no-inspiration-from-above

     
  10. Ross Thomson

    Wise Guy

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    I'd argue that they are not an outlier. The education system in the USA is atrocious with poor literacy and numeracy scores.
     
  11. Mr C

    Wise Guy

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    Relative to sub-Saharan Africa and the middle east?

    https://www.economist.com/graphic-d...poor-pupil-in-a-rich-country-than-the-reverse

    I think you'll find when the data is relative, they score very highly, maybe not compared to the wealthy Asian countries but that is more cultural rather than religious as the US isn't much worse than its European counterparts.

    Cherry-picking scores from poor American families may push them further down the table but again that's an issue of poverty and not necessarily religion.
     
  12. Ross Thomson

    Wise Guy

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    For how rich the USA is their education scores are shockingly bad.
     
  13. Mr C

    Wise Guy

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    You are going to need to provide evidence then, because based on the PISA study, which is the only collaborative global study on attainment across schools the US do not fare "shockingly bad". In fact if you use the 2018 results the US is one of the best large primarily English speaking countries in reading (2nd to NZ). We can compare them to the OECD averages in that report:

    https://www.oecd.org/pisa/PISA-results_ENGLISH.png

    US: Reading (505), Maths (478), Science (502)
    OECD: Reading (487), Maths (487), Science (489)

    The data doesn't really match up to your supposition that the USA scores are bad, they are well above OECD level in Reading and Science but do attain very badly at Maths (only, Israel, Turkey, Greece, Chile and Mexico score worse as OECD countries).

    https://www.oecd.org/pisa/publications/PISA2018_CN_USA.pdf

    The above goes back to the previous post I made, the US suffers from pretty hefty inequalities and that means there is a larger range in the test scores based on poverty (not religious) metrics as indicated by the larger than OECD average in the performance gap (99 vs 89).

     
  14. do_ron_ron

    Capodecina

    Joined: 23 Oct 2002

    Posts: 10,824

    A lot of American religion seems to be based around one figure, it is more a cult type 'religion' with a heavy salesman approach. Started with the likes of Billy Graham and mushroomed to even internet type religious cults.
     
  15. The Running Man

    Caporegime

    Joined: 18 Oct 2002

    Posts: 36,769

    Location: block 16, cell 12

    It's fascinating that Trumps daughter and all of Joe Bidens children married into the Jewish faith.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ti...ct-joe-bidens-whole-big-jewish-mishpocha/amp/

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wa...tic-if-his-daughter-is-jewish/?outputType=amp


    Maybe they know something we don't?
     
  16. Ross Thomson

    Wise Guy

    Joined: 7 Nov 2017

    Posts: 1,400




    According to the National Center for Educational Statistics (NCES), 21 percent of adults in the United States (about 43 million) fall into the illiterate/functionally illiterate category. That is a result of poor education.
    TBF the UK isn't much better.
     
  17. efish

    Mobster

    Joined: 11 Jan 2014

    Posts: 2,646


    The issue with much talk here is that scientists dabbling in history still follow the 19th century thesis of John William Draper and Andrew Dickson White, this is known as the 'conflict thesis' or popularly the 'cultural war' thesis.

    It's not used by actual historians of science anymore as its nonsense, but most people read science history written by scientists rather than historians.

    Simple the case that scientists hold a range of ideas that are utterly bonkers (from nutty political ideas/ religious lunacy/ belief in little green men/ to odd perspectives on the paranormal) and still manage to do top-notch science.

    Odd screwy beliefs are very much part of its history and still are.

    Historical illiteracy is also a thing.

    In regard to literacy, the church introduced literacy to much of Western Europe and its drive to have a population that could read the bible in the early modern period, had far-reaching unintended consequences, a literate population that could read and evaluate data for themselves.

    That situation altered everything.
     
  18. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: 13 Oct 2006

    Posts: 78,329

    A church some of my relatives attend has some of the most educated people in the UK who are members including people high up in the government, architects, teachers and scientists, etc. though I'm not sure how many are believers and how many go because their family have always been part of the church and/or as a symbolic thing to make themselves look better, etc.
     
  19. Mr C

    Wise Guy

    Joined: 8 Sep 2006

    Posts: 1,281

    What you have done here is used data for adults and conflated to literacy rates for children (or as a country wholly). Furthermore, we need to account for other externalities involved in such data, using the same point that you raised:

    https://nces.ed.gov/pubs2019/2019179.pdf

    Firstly, although it is comparative to include people unable to complete the assessment as failing to have literacy skills, this isn't a fair assessment, they may be completely literate in another language and merely immigrated to the US by being a parent or carer of an already resident American. This isn't uncommon among Hispanic and other immigrant communities so i don't believe this sub-section realistically contributes to the US having poor literacy over that immigrants who don't require it don't have it.

    As the data there specifies 8.2m of the 43m didn't participate, their designation is actually unknown.

    This pretty much sums up the above statistic, of the ones that did complete the assessment, 34% of these are non-US born, this isn't unusual in wealthy countries whereby there is lots of net immigration, this again will skew the overall data for adults with poor literacy as it is not essential for these people to have literacy.

    One final contentious point is this data is from the survey conducted in 2013. That's very old data and potentially very unreliable when used as a measuring metric. Which is why I refer to the PISA test scores for a few reasons.

    It is more recent and likely to be more relevant, it compares children, this is important as due to the aforementioned issue with immigrant adults having a proportionate influence on literacy skills, the same cannot be said for immigrant children who still participate in the national educational system. Their level of illiteracy is likely to be contributed to by a larger factor of a poor educational system rather than their background.

    Although this may all be tangential, I think even without extended analysis we can see that the US is an outlier regarding the comparison of religiosity and national outcomes (GDP), something this specific podcast episode highlights:

    The Pros and Cons of America’s (Extreme) Individualism (Ep. 470)

     
  20. Ross Thomson

    Wise Guy

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    Scientific knowledge is the history of science.