I am worried however. I want my children to grow up without indoctrination. I want them to be able to make an informed decision based on reality, not on stories. At the same time, I can't (and would never) try to prevent them from being with their grandparents. In fact the opposite; it's critically important that they have time with them.
They are not the proselitysing kind, but they also (and I include my wife in this) don't recognise that their stories are a form of indoctrination.
Am I over thinking this? Would be grateful to hear opinions from all angles.
Scotland is part of the UK despite what the SNP would have you think. Religious education is little different in Scotland than it is in England and Wales mainly teaching awareness of different religions. Indoctrination doesn't come into it.
I do find it patronising though to hear people talk about 'fairy stories'. They are part of someones faith and they deserve some respect as ways to impart values and behaviour, in the way that all religion does. Perhaps do ron ron needs to act on his own words and looo at what is really happening in Scottish education and religion rather than criticise.
If an adult believed in Santa Claus would you feel the same way? Religions are a bunch of fairy stories made up because of man's ignorance of science. A way to control and have power/money. The religion and god you have faith in is purely down to where you were born. There have been 3000+ "gods" since the dawn of man. With the invention of monotheism, we are one god closer to getting rid of religion for good. Values and morals have nothing to do with religion thankfully.
It is also true that religions are stronger in countries with little/poor education.
MORE religious countries tend to be less innovative, according to a paper published last month by America’s National Bureau of Economic Research. In “Forbidden Fruits: The Political Economy of Science, Religion, and Growth”, Roland Benabou of Princeton and Davide Ticche and Andrea Vindigni of the IMT Institute for Advanced Studies Lucca find a strong negative correlation between innovation, as measured by patents, and religiosity, measured by the share of a population that self-identifies as religious. “I am interested in how people form beliefs that are relevant to economics,” says Mr Benabou. “That thought takes you to belief with a capital B, and that’s religion.”
The authors do not claim to prove that religion causes an innovation deficit. However, they hypothesise that theocratic models of government, in which political leaders are strongly influenced by religious institutions, may provide a channel for anti-scientific views to influence public policy. As examples, they cite the banning of printing in the Ottoman Empire, and the controversial decision by the former American president George W. Bush to limit the federal government’s funding of stem-cell research. Even after taking into account these restrictions, the existence of the United States is still problematic for the theory: a fifth of the world’s GDP comes from a country that is both religious and innovative. And if religion does in fact depress innovation, that does not necessarily mean it is bad for economic growth. After all, faith could quite plausibly offer benefits, such as social cohesion, that outweigh its costs.
I'd argue that they are not an outlier. The education system in the USA is atrocious with poor literacy and numeracy scores.
For how rich the USA is their education scores are shockingly bad.
• Students in the United States performed above the OECD average in reading (505 score points) and science (502), and below the OECD average in mathematics (478). Their scores were similar to those of students in Australia, Germany, New Zealand, Sweden and the United Kingdom in at least two of these three subjects. The trend lines of United States’ mean performance in reading since 2000, mathematics since 2003 and science since 2006 are stable, with no significant improvement or decline. Nevertheless, in reading, the share of 15-year-old students who scored at Level 5 or 6 (top performers) increased by almost 4 percentage points – a statistically significant increase – between 2009 and 2018, to 13.5%.
As in many countries, socio-economically advantaged students in the United States outperformed disadvantaged students in reading, mathematics and science. In reading, the performance gap between socio-economically advantaged and disadvantaged students was 99 score points (OECD average: 89 score points). Some 27% of advantaged students in the United States, but only 4% of disadvantaged students (OECD averages: 17% and 3%, respectively), were top performers in reading, meaning that they attained one of the two highest proficiency levels. However, 10% of disadvantaged students in the United States were able to score amongst the top quarter of students in their country in reading.
Socio-economic status was a strong predictor of performance in mathematics and science in all PISA participating countries. It explained 16% of the variation in mathematics performance in PISA 2018 in the United States (compared to 14% on average across OECD countries), and 12% of the variation in science performance (compared to the OECD average of 13% of the variation).
His daughter Ivanka Trump underwent an Orthodox conversion before her 2009 marriage to Jared Kushner, who was raised observant. Their three children — Trump’s grandchildren — are full Jews according to Jewish law. See? Could an anti-Semite have a Jewish daughter?
The data doesn't really match up to your supposition that the USA scores are bad, they are well above OECD level in Reading and Science but do attain very badly at Maths (only, Israel, Turkey, Greece, Chile and Mexico score worse as OECD countries).
It is also true that religions are stronger in countries with little/poor education.
According to the National Center for Educational Statistics (NCES), 21 percent of adults in the United States (about 43 million) fall into the illiterate/functionally illiterate category. That is a result of poor education.
TBF the UK isn't much better.
In contrast, one in five U.S. adults (21 percent) has difficulty completing these tasks (figure 1). This translates into 43.0 million U.S. adults who possess low literacy skills: 26.5 million at level 1 and 8.4 million below level 1, while 8.2 million could not participate in PIAAC’s background survey either because of a language barrier or a cognitive or physical inability to be interviewed. These adults who were unable to participate are categorized as having low English literacy skills, as is done in international reports (OECD 2013), although no direct assessment of their skills is available.
U.S.-born adults make up two-thirds of adults with low levels of English literacy skills in the United States. However, the non-U.S. born are over-represented among such low-skilled adults. Non U.S.-born adults comprise 34 percent of the population with low literacy skills, compared to 15 percent of the total population (figure 2). White and Hispanic adults make up the largest percentage of U.S. adults with low levels of English literacy, 35 percent and 34 percent respectively (figure 3). By race/ethnicity and nativity status, the largest percentage of those with low literacy skills are White U.S.-born adults, who represent one third of such low-skilled population. Hispanic adults born outside the United States make up about a quarter of such low-skilled adults in the United States (figure 3).
The spirit of competition — of what Michele Gelfand calls “vertical individualism” — seems to permeate every corner of American society. Joe Henrich points out that even our religions are competitive.
HENRICH: My favorite explanation for this — I think this has been put out most clearly by a sociologist named Rodney Stark — is that with freedom of religion, you get competition amongst religious organizations. So the U.S. produces the sort of Wal-Mart equivalent of religions: big churches giving the people what they want, high pageantry. Whereas if you have a state religion, it tends to get tired and old and boring. People get less interested.
According to the Pew Research Center, 80 percent of Americans claim to believe in God, 55 percent pray at least daily, and 36 percent attend a religious service at least once a week. That level of religiosity is very high for a wealthy country.
HENRICH: We have a kind of religiosity equivalent to somewhere like Kuwait. If you plot the U.S. on G.D.P. on one axis and religiosity on the other axis, the U.S. is a clear and distinct outlier — with high G.D.P and high religion.
High religiosity coupled with high individualism reveals another feature of American culture. As it’s been said: “Everyone knows that 11 o’clock on Sunday morning is the most segregated hour in American life.”
The issue with much talk here is that scientists dabbling in history still follow the 19th century thesis of John William Draper and Andrew Dickson White, this is known as the 'conflict thesis' or popularly the 'cultural war' thesis.
It's not used by actual historians of science anymore as its nonsense, but most people read science history written by scientists rather than historians.
Simple the case that scientists hold a range of ideas that are utterly bonkers (from nutty political ideas/ religious lunacy/ belief in little green men/ to odd perspectives on the paranormal) and still manage to do top-notch science.