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Innocent until proven Muslim

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by zoomee, Oct 8, 2012.

  1. zoomee

    Soldato

    Joined: Dec 15, 2004

    Posts: 5,773

    Location: Hudds, UK

    A number of important points here and I completely agree with this opinion of a well known politician- Islamaphobia is on the rise here in the UK/EU and you only have to look at this forum and the usual weekly posts about 'muslims' to prove my point. (Pee off back home comments are getting too common here)

    It seems to me the media has a huge part to play in this - As soon as a crime is commited by a so called 'muslim' - MUSLIM FANATIC is sprayed all over the headlines, however - when it's someone of a different faith - they're faith is not mentioned once......so is it really a case of Innocent until proven Muslim?

    If your not interested in intellectual debate in discussing these points - please don't contribute to this thread. Now DISCUSS! ;)
     
  2. antijoke

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 28, 2003

    Posts: 37,689

    Location: Stratford-Upon-Avon

    I think you have your own slanted views on this, and that will get in the way of an intellectual debate on the subject.
     
  3. zoomee

    Soldato

    Joined: Dec 15, 2004

    Posts: 5,773

    Location: Hudds, UK

    Everyones entitled to a personal point of view or opinion - it doesn't mean one can't engage in debate :rolleyes:

    I was actually referring to the usual derogatory/one liner comments that individuals often make when I said don't bother contributing to this thread.

    oh, hang on a sec - yours was a one liner too ;)
     
  4. antijoke

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 28, 2003

    Posts: 37,689

    Location: Stratford-Upon-Avon

    You seem to have a mighty big chip on your shoulder.

    Ok I'll bite.....

    The case you seem to have highlighted, you have to wonder where one draws a line in being 'intellectually curious' as to amass a collection of such files talking about something like terrorism.

    The above was taken from the BBC article you posted, so if he has such strong commitment then why would you even be looking at such things in the first place, what is there to be curious about? Let alone downloading it, then keeping the files.

    I do agree though that sending to prison was excessive in this case given the past records, maybe they should have been given a slap on the wrist and given limited access to the internet.

    I agree 100% with this guy.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2012
  5. V-Spec

    Mobster

    Joined: Jun 8, 2005

    Posts: 3,698

    Location: London

    I don't think it's been sensationalised by the media simply because a Muslim commits a general crime and the fact they're a Muslim is the reason, that's just being highly paranoid.

    I think it's more a case of when a Muslim commits a crime or conspires to commit a crime in the name of Islam, then it has the potential to stimulate the media a degree higher than they normally would for things involving normal crimes.

    There aren't many groups of people who will go as far as blowing themselves up on tube trains - it's only natural that after some of these events have occurred and them being directly linked to Islam, that there will be an element of 'phobia' around Muslims who conspire to commit 'holy acts'

    If events like this occur (which they have) you can't really expect anything other than a high degree of media focus on such things.
     
  6. Morbius

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jul 16, 2008

    Posts: 2,241

    I do agree that there is a blatant double standard. There is a worrying level of hysteria. Because of ignorance, other religions are getting caught in the crossfire. Some sikhs are getting abused because idiots can't tell the difference.

    When you point out the amount of Christian terrorism, a lot of people will say "Well they're not true Christians." What's a true Christian? Even Christians don't know what a true Christian is, otherwise you wouldn't have thousands of denominations.
     
  7. zoomee

    Soldato

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    Posts: 5,773

    Location: Hudds, UK

    Theres plenty of terrorism acts that have occured over the years but it seems to me that the media are classing terrorism these days as a monopoly of muslims only. I'm sure I don't need to quote many many reports from the media that first and foremost mention a 'general crime' commited by a muslim highlighting that they are a muslim. You never see 'christian, jewish or agnostic' mentioned when most crimes are commited, however if they are muslim its splashed as such all over the media. Hence why I feel the media are mostly to blame for this culture of islamaphobia throughout the west these days. Look at the Bradford case mentioned above as an example of how the media influences 'impartial judging'.

    Most of these so called 'in the name of Islam' crimes are NOT actually in the name of Islam. If one researches the religion and topic at hand you'll find majority of the times Islam is against such acts and it is nothing but the individual at fault rather than the religion.

    This is exactly it mate, I find it hard to believe that even though a person has not actually carried out an act - we can be sentenced to life in prison for even coming close to 'maybe' thinking that way. Since when did we punish for 'thought crimes'? My point about the media influence is that everyone these days are quick to judge that a person is 'innocent until proven muslim' - There are quite a few terrorism cases these days, of which only 2% if not less are actually just that - most of them individuals are charged on much lesser crimes but the press never highlight this fact. Just that someone is being charged for T E R R O R I S M, but what was the actual outcome?
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2012
  8. Greboth

    Mobster

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    Until reading that article I must admit to not knowing much about the 'Bradford 5' so this response is based purely on the article. Does what they did deserve prison - I would say no, they hadn't actually commited a crime as there apparently was no actual plot to use the knowledge however they should of been warned about it. Now if it came out that there had been police survelience on them I would understand it completely as definately something to keep an eye on.

    It would appear that they got a harsher sentance purely for being Muslim, if that is the case it's wrong however as far as I could see they made one comparison to another case. If they could provide multiple evidence of non muslims commiting worse offences but getting lesser punishments then fine but one example doesn't prove a rule.

    As for the one liners of 'pee off back home' - I don't often come in the speakers corner however some of the times I have seen it there has been some justification. Personally I do not care whether someone is Muslim or not, you have to question the logic behind any immigrant coming to the UK then, for lack of a better term off the top of my head, preaching hate about the UK (this also applies for hate about the western world too).

    Edit: As for the religion isn't to blame it is the person, I agree in part. Yes it is against the Islam to do what they have done however it can still be done in the name of Islam. Look back through history and you will find lots of things that have been done that are against what the religion stands for but have been done in the name of said religion. The earliest example I can think of off the top of my head is the crusades, it is against Christianity to kill however how many thousands were kill in the name of Christianity.

    As for the whole terrorism heading, it is the times we live in. Go back to the IRA and then terrorist meant the Irish, now you say terrorism and most people do think Islam/Muslims/Jihad etc, it doesn't mean it is the only terrorism being commited at the moment but it is the highest threat of terrorism at the moment. Also 2% or less - source?
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2012
  9. estebanrey

    Capodecina

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    Posts: 10,938

    What these guys did is the equivalent to an Irishman living in 1980s England buying posters of Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness and trying to claim he's just into politics.

    Even if they were just 'curious' they deserve to be imprisoned of their sheer stupidity.
     
  10. estebanrey

    Capodecina

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    Posts: 10,938

    Yes you do need to quote them because I don't know where you're getting this idea from.
     
  11. gigeorge

    Wise Guy

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    Location: The Shire

    As its such a hot topic, you'd only post this sort of thing if you were after a reaction rather than a debate. The topics been done to death.
     
  12. troops

    Wise Guy

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    Yeah i agree, just integrate and get on with it.
     
  13. V-Spec

    Mobster

    Joined: Jun 8, 2005

    Posts: 3,698

    Location: London

    This is why:

    So out of eight incidents - Islam and Muslims were directly involved in five of them.

    In that list, I don't see Jewish people, agnostic people or anyone else committing crimes relating to their faith of lack thereof, I see a direct link between the faith of Islam and terrorism, like it or loathe it - that seems to be a simple fact.

    I understand the vast majority of Muslims aren't extreme, however that doesn't exclude the fact that a small majority seem to be extremely dangerous.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2012
  14. Vonhelmet

    Caporegime

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    You say that as though Muslims don't say the same thing.

    There are varying interpretations among different Muslim groups as well.
     
  15. Meridian

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

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    Location: Vvardenfell

    I notice that list form Wiki doesn't mention things like fire-bombings carried out by various Animal Rights groups, leaving me to suspect a very limited definition of "Terrorist Acts" - the point the OP was making.
     
  16. V-Spec

    Mobster

    Joined: Jun 8, 2005

    Posts: 3,698

    Location: London

    How many incidents of fire-bombing by animal rights activists have killed people in the UK, in the last 10 years?


    The OP was moaning about why the media are so wrong and nasty for causing 'Islamophobia' and focussing on Muslims and terror, I merely quoted some facts and figures to show why,
     
  17. zoomee

    Soldato

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    Location: Hudds, UK

  18. zoomee

    Soldato

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    Location: Hudds, UK

    Oh, and if you think I'm being paranoid:

    Islamaphobia in the media has been covered by numerous outlets:
    The Independant: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/m...ia-at-the-heart-of-britains-press-861096.html
    The Guardian: http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/greenslade/2011/apr/12/dailyexpress-islam
    The Telegraph: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1528485/Media-contributing-to-rise-of-Islamophobia.html
     
  19. Morbius

    Wise Guy

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    Posts: 2,241

    I didn't mean to give that impression. I can only relate to what I experience. What I see is a lot of people from Christian backgrounds believing that Islam is inherently violent because of terrorist attacks from people who consider themselves Muslim. The same people don't hold Christianity to the same standard - people who commit terrorism and call themselves Christian "aren't proper Christians". This is a double standard. It probably occurs on both sides and it doesn't help anyone.
     
  20. Stretch

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 14, 2004

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    Location: Cambridge

    That's only true in your mind. This country has a long history of being subject to terrorist attacks from all denominations. In recent times, there have been Zionist Jews in Palestine throughout the late 40s. Christians in Ireland throughout the majority of the last century and beyond. Hindus in India both before and after WWII. And most recently Muslims since the turn of the century. No distinction is made, Muslims terrorists are no special case.