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Innocent until proven Muslim

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by zoomee, Oct 8, 2012.

  1. PanchoVilla

    Hitman

    Joined: Mar 11, 2004

    Posts: 602

    You would be fine to mention this if you also balanced it with other examples, such as:

    - We were only in Argentina because we invaded it.
    - We only had control over Hong Kong because we wanted to keep our opium trade open and thus we invaded it (First Opium War http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Opium_War)
    - We were only in America because we invaded it.
    - America were only in Vietnam, because they justified invasion aftera false flag operation (Gulf of Tonkin incident, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_flag).
    - We were only in Australia because we invaded it.

    Yes, muslims invaded spain, but they didn't ransack the place and cause genocide like our examples. In fact, they did this when we were in our 'dark ages' and in reality it was the 'age of light' in Spain with massive advances in science, and municipal services e.g. sewers, water, lights etc. not to mention law and order.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2013
  2. PanchoVilla

    Hitman

    Joined: Mar 11, 2004

    Posts: 602

    And how does this affect you?

    I can cite examples from my close neighbourhood of women marrying Jamaican, Hindu and English. And they still have ties to their family. Sure, I imagine, the families aren't best pleased, but it happens. In the same way that many Jewish Ladies, marry gentiles when they aren't supposed to.

    Again, how does this affect you? If you are fighting for woman's rights, then perhaps your concern and efforts are massively disproportionate of the actual issue.

    Disregarding any further permutations of the marriage scenario, I've even known of cases where muslims have left the fold of islam. And that is sad, but again, it is their choice and they alone will face God for their actions, just like the rest of us. And, none of us will be able to claim that we didn't know or didn't have a choice on the day of judgement. To that end, I genuinely hope I've not impeded anyone's personal journey to recognise the Creator, or indeed the Quran as the final message.


    EDIT:

    As a side note, in the early days of my career, I had a Scottish colleague who married an English girl (from Liverpool if I remember correctly) - I can remember him telling me how he was ostracised to some extent by his family. Until then, I never knew the (edit: some) Scotts hated the English. But hey, that's life.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2013
  3. PanchoVilla

    Hitman

    Joined: Mar 11, 2004

    Posts: 602

    OK I'll bite... what are you really afraid of or alluding to? That a great number of muslims will eventually impose their beliefs on you? and perhaps circumcise you against your will? :)

    I've heard your type of comments before, to my face, even with suggestions that it's good that muslims stay in communities which will eventually make it easier for the 'xxx' to expel.

    Your comment, which seems innocuous, does more to aid an evil sentiment than perhaps otherwise intended. Which begs the question, are you aware of your own agenda?
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2013
  4. RDM

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 1, 2007

    Posts: 20,192

    Are you only bothered about injustice when it is done to Muslims? Can only homosexuals campaign for equal rights for gays? Can only women campaign for equal rights for women? Should we stand back and let people be treated poorly just because it isn't directly impacting us? For evil to triumph and all that...

    On multiple occasions I have mentioned my distaste for the Catholic preaching on contraception and it's impact in Africa. For Catholic families in the UK it is their own choice and of no real concern of mine because no harm is done.

    If there is specific harm done to others then it would matter, but in all of the above cases then the real harm is either negligible or otherwise easily avoided.

    Should we only care about something if it impacts us specifically?

    You can use court because, due to UK Common Law, courts of arbitration are legally binding.

    Nope, because my distaste would apply equally to any practice that I would see as specifically discriminatory regardless of who is perpetrating it. However in a thread about Muslims the topic is likely to be Muslims.


    Nope, I am equally against them too, but this thread isn't about Jews so I didn't mention them.

    Don't you think it is sad that you have to mention "Historically" because today Islamic states are considerably less tolerant than secular states.

    I would be quite happy for all religious courts to be disbanded and for the Lords Spiritual to be removed from the House of Lords and for the Church of England to be disestablished.

    A secular law based on harm done rather than moral codes from many hundreds of years ago would be a much better system.
     
  5. PanchoVilla

    Hitman

    Joined: Mar 11, 2004

    Posts: 602

    As a human being, and like the majority, I am disturbed by injustice wherever it occurs. But therein lies the clue, what seems to be injustice to you, is readily accepted by practicing muslims who choose to go down the islamic court route.


    Ergo, let the muslims who choose their way of life also be as it is their own choice and of no real concern of yours.
     
  6. RDM

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 1, 2007

    Posts: 20,192

    You seem to be missing the harm element. If Sharia courts were harmless I would have no issue with them. As they discriminate against women, then they are not harmless.
     
  7. PanchoVilla

    Hitman

    Joined: Mar 11, 2004

    Posts: 602

    And you seem to be missing the 'value system' element. Your interpretation of 'discrimination' does not necessary apply to others.

    If your quest is to come to the aid of 'discriminated' women and enable them to use the UK legal system - then I resign from further comment, because they can already do so. I have seen several divorces in my own family connections, and let me tell you, all of the women went through the uk legal system, and not via the islamic court. It's down to their own piety. The men have been helpless about it, even though they would have preferred an islamic ruling as it would have been in their favour.

    EDIT:

    RDM, with greatest respect, I am weaning off this thread as I feel I'm revisiting the same points I made earlier. As I indicated from the outset, I'm not a scholar but thought to clarify some points as I saw them. Thank you for your mature discourse.

    As courtesy, I will answer any questions sports_brah may have tomorrow as I've replied to his earlier.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2013
  8. RDM

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 1, 2007

    Posts: 20,192

    I am not missing the 'value system' element. Objectively Islamic law is sexist.

    Your second part of the post once again ignores the coercion element which has been shown to be a problem and seems to confuse anecdote with data. Oddly you then go on to support the fact that Islamic law is sexist! One of the points you are trying to argue against!
     
  9. PanchoVilla

    Hitman

    Joined: Mar 11, 2004

    Posts: 602

    Just because islam does not automatically split a 50% share in a couple's wealth does not mean it is sexist.
     
  10. RDM

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 1, 2007

    Posts: 20,192

    Not necessarily no, but when it treats women worse than men it does. Objectively, Islam (like most of the more traditional Abrahamic religions) is sexist.
     
  11. zoomee

    Soldato

    Joined: Dec 15, 2004

    Posts: 5,773

    Location: Hudds, UK

    Tell me of one religion that isn't considered 'sexist' in this day and age and I'll accept your point for singling out Islam. Islam itself promotes HUGE women's rights if you actually researched the religion, when compared to other religions and applies some fine limits which no other religion does. Unfortunately it's the culture of certain countries that portrays the image of Islam being oppressive (along with the media hype here - bringing us back on point to the original topic really ;) )

    Putting religion aside - our british society is sexist so its a mute point really http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/sarah-castell/women-think-society-is-sexist_b_3765991.html..... - just look at the TV and if you can't see sexism I'd suggest a visit to specsavers mate ;)
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2013
  12. RDM

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 1, 2007

    Posts: 20,192

    Quakers?

    I also didn't single out Islam, I singled out the Abrahamic religions, but you are right there are plenty of other religions that are also pretty poor.

    I would learn about a few more religions if I was you. Plenty of them don't have any restrictions at all based on gender. The fact that, as medieval religions go, Islam isn't as bad as Christianity or Judaism, isn't really all that important when you compare it do a secular equality position it is still pretty poor.

    I suggest you visit spec savers yourself, because at no point did I say that the UK wasn't still sexist. It is however getting better and at lest we have a legal framework that promotes equality. If your best argument against the sexism in Islam is "Well other people are sexist too" then it is a pretty damning defence of the alleged word of God.
     
  13. zoomee

    Soldato

    Joined: Dec 15, 2004

    Posts: 5,773

    Location: Hudds, UK

    I'll never argue about sexism in Islam or in life overall - women are unique in their own right and possess qualities that men don't have - the same applies vice versa. Hence why women are affording extra rights in Islam, mostly for their own protection. There's a reason why more and more UK women are turning towards Islam: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/11/islam-converts-british-women-prejudice

    In fact - the majority of reverts to Islam here in the UK are female - not male. Upon further research people easily begin to see the value Islam places on the 'family unit' and the important roles both male and females play.

    On the flip side - I hardly see you in other "religious" threads fighting for women's rights. You've purposely singled out Islam for your 'sexism' cause here.......
     
  14. sports_brah

    Thug

    Joined: Jan 4, 2013

    Posts: 3,784

    Why is it that every defense of islam is always a deflection? "Well they did it", "some where obscure in history someone else did it".

    My point about Spain was the "peaceful" life was because islam dominated it, as it does in every country it gets its paws on.

    It's the fundamental reason most actions can be justified in islam. It's the reason why men can marry non muslims and women cannot. It's a an aggressive tactic which makes it like a 1 way fish trap.

    How does it affect me? Well because I live in a country which traditionally had Christian principles and which is moving towards a secular basis.

    However I do not deny human nature, and unlike a lot of secularists, realise that religion DOES have a place in human psyche. Therefore it affects me to see a religion with terrible values (imo) and a terrible track record insiduously moving into a country to which it's values are diametrically opposed.

    islam WOULD affect my life as a Christian. It would affect the life of people I love and care about, and any possible children I might have. That's why I care.

    There are plenty of islamic tips in the world where people can go, I would not have an aggressively proselyting religion such as yours in this society. If it is there, I want to make sure it completely ascribes to the values of this society and not seek to change it through demographics, "minority status", cultural awareness or any other means.

    And here we have it. Boil it down enough and you see it what it is. A violent misogynistic religion.

    "Take care of women".

    Great.

    Last time I looked, when woman actually have equal opportunities they out perform men consistently, both academically and in leadership capabilities.

    But oh no, they "have their place in the family unit", :rolleyes: lets keep them in the home, and make sure we "protect them" from other men.
     
  15. zoomee

    Soldato

    Joined: Dec 15, 2004

    Posts: 5,773

    Location: Hudds, UK

    Protect them from uneducated men like yourself - definitely!

    It's interesting how you see 'taking care of your women' as equating to oppression - typical (Innocent until proven muslim?) lol. I know plenty of women (non-muslims) who have specifically stated (single females of course) that they're just tired and want a 'partner to look after them'. I don't say this applies to them all - but hey that's an entirely different subject and not even related to religion.

    Islam teaches that 'heaven lies at your mothers feet', the rewards for bringing up daughters, the rights your wife has over you - and a hell of a lot more. Specifically see this list for a list of womens rights in islam: http://www.answering-christianity.com/womensrights.htm

    I will admit though that most cultures are to blame for the oppression of women in the muslim lands. (take for example Saudi Arabia and the recent women being able to drive debacle - nothing in Islam places this restriction - it's a tradition of the land)

    Someone who thinks he's a christian but knows nothing about his own religions past..... just LOL if you think Christianity is better for women - lest I need to remind you where the witch hunts came from, or the fact that Christianity (as mandated by your book) clearly states that women are evil - hell they even blame Eve for the fall of Adam - just pure LOL's and you claim Islam is misogynistic.

    You know nothing of the history of Islam and Christianity if you think it will affect YOUR Christian life in some way - but again we digress from the OT.

    Anyways - bringing things back on point - all your misconceptions about islam are far too stereotypical that I'm not even going to attempt to entertain them anymore - enjoy ;)
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2013
  16. zoomee

    Soldato

    Joined: Dec 15, 2004

    Posts: 5,773

    Location: Hudds, UK

    EDIT: Oops dual post
     
  17. RDM

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 1, 2007

    Posts: 20,192

    I quite like how the article you link also has an example of the sexism in Islam...

    I'd check those other threads again if I was you, either that or take your own advice about ocular correction...

    Again though, I am talking about Islam in a thread about Islam, that is indicative of the topic of the thread rather than any prejudice.
     
  18. PanchoVilla

    Hitman

    Joined: Mar 11, 2004

    Posts: 602

    sports_brah, I am dissapoint, lol. I stayed on this thread to answer any points you may have raised only to find your riposte lacking any substance.

    Why did you resort to a non-sequitur here (on how Islam would affect you personally)?:

    So, muslims affect you because you live in a traditionally Christian country?
    Using all powers of reason, and propositional logic, I don't know how to respond to that.

    ...same again. Now that you mention children....I pray they see the truth better than you.

    'tips' you say? Therein, lies the clue as to your prejudicial hatred.

    As to your concern over 'proselyting', I think you may be confusing Islam with Jehovah's Witnesses. When was the last time you were asked to convert?

    And by your shallow wish to not have a 'proselyting religion' in this country - what are you actually saying? Are you using language associated with the BNP?

    Not arguing there. But you, as a Christian, should agree that men and women have different qualities. After all, there were no women prophets although there were many prominent women (including Eve, Mary peace be upon them) . You really need to educate your self more on women's rights and their position in Islam. I'm not going to do it for you, because you've made your prejudices clear.

    EDIT:

    Took me a while to find this again, but this comment of yours made me wince:

    http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?p=24393801#post24393801

    ...I'm guessing you are in your twenties, I hope your introspection in the years ahead afford you better tolerance/understanding towards mankind, and all nature.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2013
  19. Yas786

    Caporegime

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 46,601

    Location: All over the world...

    ^^^Couldnt have said it any better my friend.
     
  20. Zethor

    Mobster

    Joined: Nov 13, 2013

    Posts: 4,294

    Men and women have different qualities just like short men and tall men have different qualities. These "differences" don't explain why women have little relevance in your religion, as well as most other systems of belief. The explanation is much simpler: your religion comes from a period of history when women were oppressed, abused, used as a commodity and generally seen as being one step above slaves. The holy books authors did their best to mirror the society in which they were born, they didn't give a damn about the subtle differences between men and women.

    Which brings me to:

    Different people, different ideas of justice/injustice, right? That sounds perfectly reasonable except it's not: many cultures have created abominations throughout history that were widely accepted at the time. Even if some muslims readily accept certain absurdities of their religion, those things are still wrong and they are unaware victims of their own culture.