Intel about to expand into Graphics, AMD on the rise, are the tables turning on nVidia?

[humbug]

I think there is a little hyperbole in the video linked below but there is some truth to it.

nVidia haven't been able to grow their partner portfolio much recently, even losing some major partners like Tesla.

Compare that to AMD who are already in every Console bar one, the nVidia / ARM powered Switch.

This year AMD have announced partnering with Google for its Stadia game streaming service who will be using AMD's GPU's.

Cray will be using entirely AMD based systems for its upcoming 1.5 ExaFlop Super Computer, which is 50% more powerful than the one Intel's building, its using Vega GPU's and Zen cores.

Samsung just announced they will be using AMD's graphics IP For Mobile Phones / Tablets

They are steadily growing their market share for Bread and Butter servers.

Add to that at least one Motherboard manufacture have said they are now selling more AMD boards than they do Intel.

One major retailer who published statistics for such things report that for more than a year they have been selling more AMD CPU's than Intel, in the last 6 moths or so 2 to 3 times as many.

Top 3 best selling CPU's on Rain Forest in the past year have been almost exclusively Ryzen, often Ryzen dominates the top row of 6.

OEM's are using more and more Ryzen products in their products.

The up-coming Ryzen 3000 looks like it will have higher IPC than Coffeelake and with 50% more cores and a fat 16 core 32 thread 'still mainstream' sitting waiting for an attempted strike back from Intel.

Navi will have better price to performance ratio to RTX but i don't think nVidia care about that, they dominate and will continue to dominate PC gaming. but out side of that they are not winning the partnerships that AMD are.

That moves us onto Intel, who will have the dominant player in the GPU space firmly in their sights, once they launch their GPU's they will start strutting around on nVidia's hallowed ground and while AMD are in a position to persuade some of nVidia's natural customers, as i have just explained, Intel have the much bigger carrot and they have a huge stick.

I don't "FEAR for nVidia" but some cracks are not just beginning to show, but are opening up with just AMD becoming more brazen than they have been able to in recent years, just think what Intel will do when they invite themselves into nVidia's home.

Also, Intel are starting to get eaten by AMD in their backyard.

FUN FUN times.

 

[ukxenon]

competition is always good for the consumer and it is great AMD are back in the game

 

[Satchfanuk]

This is why, imo, Nvidia threw RT at us this early. They believe it will keep them relevant and in control of PC graphics. There's no doubt that RT is the future and if gamers associate RT with Nvidia, they will remain the market leader and dominant force in gaming GPUs. I could be wrong but it sort of makes sense from a protectionist viewpoint and Nvidia can see other players starting to eat into their markets and want to make sure they continued to hold the mindshare advantage and ensure gamers still want to throw money at them.

 

[Poneros]

At least on desktop graphics, I don't think Nvidia has much to worry about from either AMD or Intel. Their big problem is going to be competing with consoles. With 4K 60 fps and some minor ray tracing shenanigans on the horizon for PS5 & Xbox w/e, at around $500? Yeah, that's gonna smash Nvidia right in the face.

Wouldn't rule out if they simply expanded the top range and kept pushing prices up, all on the back of providing more RT performance, like @Satchfanuk rightly points out. Otherwise, how else are they gonna compete? Esports are cheap to run so that won't push margins & they have to deliver something truly special for gamers, especially the less savvy ones, to stick with a much more expensive platform. Remember, past 4K & high settings, it's mostly diminishing returns. Much harder to persuade than before.

 

[StriderX]

Even 4k is diminished returns on the vast majority of games, because you need a huge almost perfect monitor and games that actually show that level of detail in the first place. (which should change, but the quality of the gameplay is going right into the gutter with Games as a Service ruining literally the entire market... le sigh)

144Hz (or High refresh rate in general) is a vastly superior attribute unless you need the screen for other duties (then you'd probably want 5-8k screens then?). Then it would be colour accuracy/10 bit screens, HDR and basic quality of the panel tech before resolution really matters.

Honestly i think what Nvidia should be scared about is a collapse in consumer confidence in the products that they showcase, but i could be being over excited.

 

[Perfect_Chaos]

Let's hope Intel can bring some good cards against Nv, at least it should help bring the prices down, since i have a Gsync screen i will need an Nv card for a while anyway.

Even 4k is diminished returns on the vast majority of games

Checking some benchmarks there are still some games that do struggle at 4k even with a decent card like a 2070 or even a 2080. I remember seeing comments with Sony fans claiming PS5 would demolish 4k and all games would be 60fps etc.. no chance on some demanding games there. I'd put money on some games being 30fps locked or details/resolution lowered.

1440p is a good place to be if you care about speed, and as I've said before if you have a high refresh screen it's just a bonus if you can hit higher fps.

 

[BigBANGtheory]

Navi will have better price to performance ratio to RTX but i don't think nVidia care about that, they dominate and will continue to dominate PC gaming. but out side of that they are not winning the partnerships that AMD are.

but it doesn't challenge the performance of a 2080Ti unfortunately, when AMD do that I'll take notice.

Good that they are pushing past Intel, tbh its Zen3 that has my interest.

I don't know about anyone else but I personally feel Intel and Nvidia have been sand bagging for years whilst asking for a price premium, that combination leaves a bad taste in the mouths of consumers.

 

[gthlm]

but it doesn't challenge the performance of a 2080Ti unfortunately, when AMD do that I'll take notice.

It doesn't need to hold a candle to the 2080Ti, or the 3080Ti, or whatever comes after that, to hurt nVidia.

If the very high end/halo card is nVidia's only compelling product, they're done. Those products account for a very tiny percentage of the revenue of any such company - it's effectively advertising, product promotion to boost mindshare. They can't survive on sales of those alone.

I don't know about anyone else but I personally feel Intel and Nvidia have been sand bagging for years whilst asking for a price premium, that combination leaves a bad taste in the mouths of consumers.

Well, idk about nVidia (I seriously doubt they've been sandbagging), but intel? No way. They've been struggling for a good few years now. Their 10nm process has been an abject failure, and they've been stuck wringing the last little bit of ipc gains out of their aging uarch for years now. Their high prices are a simple case of making hay while the sun is shining, because they know they are facing hard times.

 

[Darujhistan]

but it doesn't challenge the performance of a 2080Ti unfortunately, when AMD do that I'll take notice.

Good that they are pushing past Intel, tbh its Zen3 that has my interest.

I don't know about anyone else but I personally feel Intel and Nvidia have been sand bagging for years whilst asking for a price premium, that combination leaves a bad taste in the mouths of consumers.

NV have been getting by on MVP for years, just like INTEL have, it is what companies do when they can. It is what EA do with their franchises like FIFA and Madden, what Bioware did with Anthem, and what Bethesda did with F76, which Toddy recently admitted to.

 

[KillBoY_UK]

I think AMD's GPU division has more to worry about than Nvidia's if a strong Intel GPU comes out, if one does come out its good for the consumer, prices of high end cards should come down if theirs completion there again.

 

[NZXT30]

At least on desktop graphics, I don't think Nvidia has much to worry about from either AMD or Intel. Their big problem is going to be competing with consoles. With 4K 60 fps and some minor ray tracing shenanigans on the horizon for PS5 & Xbox w/e, at around $500? Yeah, that's gonna smash Nvidia right in the face.

Wouldn't rule out if they simply expanded the top range and kept pushing prices up, all on the back of providing more RT performance, like @Satchfanuk rightly points out. Otherwise, how else are they gonna compete? Esports are cheap to run so that won't push margins & they have to deliver something truly special for gamers, especially the less savvy ones, to stick with a much more expensive platform. Remember, past 4K & high settings, it's mostly diminishing returns. Much harder to persuade than before.

there is 0 chance next gen consoles will be able to handle 4k at 60fps.

 

[D.P.]

I think AMD's GPU division has more to worry about than Nvidia's if a strong Intel GPU comes out, if one does come out its good for the consumer, prices of high end cards should come down if theirs completion there again.

Indeed, if Intel's GPU is at all competitive then AMD will likely loose the most since the Intel GPOU will be fighting at the entry-level and low end with OEM deals. Also intel will look at more competitive APUs. AMD also suffers from low brand awareness so a consumer may be more likely to drop an AMD product for Intel than Nvidia for Intel.


But all of this is just nonsense. From a purely economics perspective, Nvidia can simply buy out AMD. Nvidia are in a much stronger position in consumer gaming, HPC & data center, professional graphics, automotive and embedded systems, and deep learning. The HPC & data center market is intrinsically linked to Nvidia since CUDA is the defacto industry standard and much of the software only works on CUDA or t least is best supported on CUDA.

 

[ANDREW GREEN]

At least on desktop graphics, I don't think Nvidia has much to worry about from either AMD or Intel. Their big problem is going to be competing with consoles. With 4K 60 fps and some minor ray tracing shenanigans on the horizon for PS5 & Xbox w/e, at around $500? Yeah, that's gonna smash Nvidia right in the face.

Wouldn't rule out if they simply expanded the top range and kept pushing prices up, all on the back of providing more RT performance, like @Satchfanuk rightly points out. Otherwise, how else are they gonna compete? Esports are cheap to run so that won't push margins & they have to deliver something truly special for gamers, especially the less savvy ones, to stick with a much more expensive platform. Remember, past 4K & high settings, it's mostly diminishing returns. Much harder to persuade than before.

The problem with that strategy is that:

A) Most sales are in the mid tier, so the majority of revenue is there, ie most of Nvidia's revenue
B) Games developers won't be putting much resources into the high end RTX tech if there isn't many gamers to take advantage of it.

Also I am sceptical about PS5 hitting 4k @ 60fps. OK I'm sure they'll optimise some games for that. But they'll also want next gen eye candy games and those games will drop the FPS down significantly. Not that many people are even on 4k to notice that just yet. How powerful is it going to be? Last gen was an RX 480 that had to be underclocked to 470 levels. That's a £250 GPU. So what can AMD provide for £250-£300 in 12 months? It's rumoured to be big Navi, which is rumoured to be 2080-2080ti levels. That sounds unlikely really, that PS5 = Top Tier PC Performance. Personally I expect something in the 1080/2070 ballpark, with titles optimising games for that setting. So they'll tone down visually settings that cost frames that don't affect visual effect very much like shadows and things.

So a PC that can give better performance is still desirable and is why everyone here isn't just sticking to a PS4 Pro. We can probably expect a 3080ti and an improved AMD Arc shortly after PS5 launch

 

[StriderX]

What are the chances the US actually agrees once Intel hits into the GPU market, that Nvidia can buy out AMD...

 

[JediFragger]

What are the chances the US actually agrees once Intel hits into the GPU market, that Nvidia can buy out AMD...

Then AMD instantly loses its x86 licence, thereby the only real value it carries is its GPU division.

 

[Nasher]

Nvidia messed up by treating customers like mugs.

 

[humbug]

From a purely economics perspective, Nvidia can simply buy out AMD.

Its doesn't work like that , For one AMD would have to agree to a Buyout, nVidia can't just say to AMD here is some cash we own you now, if AMD don't want to sell then nVidia can go and stick it up them.

The other problem nVidia have is their current worth is $87bn and falling to AMD's $32bn and rising, its going to be extremely difficult to convince investors to stump up what will probably be near $40bn by the end of this year, half what nVidia are worth when they have lost half their value in less than a year, nVidia are not doing well, not well at all. Gigantic debts like that would kill them off.

 

[D.P.]

Its doesn't work like that , For one AMD would have to agree to a Buyout, nVidia can't just say to AMD here is some cash we own you now, if AMD don't want to sell then nVidia can go and stick it up them.

What part of "From a purely economics perspective," don't you understand?
Of course AMD would have to agree, and there would be huge legal hoops to jump through.


You own number simply backup my point that Nvidia is significantly larger and healthier than AMD, except you mistakenly think the change in nvidia's share's have particular relevance to the discussion. Thier share value raised far too quickly on promises of short term automotive sales as well as bitcoin hype. The market simply corrected itself. Actual economic health of Nvidia is excellent, with increasing revenue, increasing profits, increasing market share and rapidly increasing revenue in new markets.

 

[D.P.]

Nvidia messed up by treating customers like mugs.

Except they are increasing market share, revenue and profits. I wouldn't call that messing up.

Nvidia's strategy in the last year has been sound. Share prices do not only reflect company policies but general market conditions. Nvidia have no control on the rise and fall of Bitcoin which lead to a corresponding rise and fall in share prices.

 

[Poneros]

there is 0 chance next gen consoles will be able to handle 4k at 60fps.

Also I am sceptical about PS5 hitting 4k @ 60fps. OK I'm sure they'll optimise some games for that. But they'll also want next gen eye candy games and those games will drop the FPS down significantly. Not that many people are even on 4k to notice that just yet. How powerful is it going to be? Last gen was an RX 480 that had to be underclocked to 470 levels.

X1X does 4K 30 in most titles. You don't think they'll top that?

First party titles will without a doubt crush that. Hell, look at what they manage with Halo 5! 95% of the time stays in 4K and 60 fps, very rare drops. Next gen will have a 6x more powerful CPU, state of the art SSD, all sorts of graphical advances & likely no less than a V56 worth of GPU grunt. I can't believe anyone's even doubting this.