1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

is it time for a political revoloution, or a rule change.

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by GAC, May 1, 2012.

  1. Mr_T

    Hitman

    Joined: Feb 7, 2006

    Posts: 728

    Location: Perth, Australia

    +1

    This needs to happen - the people need to regain control of their country and its policies.

    If Greece does pullout of the Euro it is said that it will go through a horrid time, this may be so, however in the long run Greece will come out of this a stronger and better country. The too big to fail stance is wrong - Failure is a good thing, it allows better systems to come in and improve... some day that system will fail, and be replaced with a better solution.

    This is the cycle that should be happening - propping up systems that don't work is mental.
     
  2. amigafan2003

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jan 18, 2008

    Posts: 14,516

    Location: Fylde Coast, Lancashire

    Plus 1.

    And I hope Greece brings down alot of other unsustainable market polices as well - inc the UK's.

    I hope this brings about a new dawn of socialist thinking that erradicates the failed '90's experiment of pseudo-soscialist New Labour.
     
  3. Raumarik

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 14, 2003

    Posts: 13,725

  4. aln

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Sep 7, 2009

    Posts: 2,076

    Location: West Lothian, Scotland.

    Executive pay has certainly got out of hand but the only winner from such outrage will be that (share)owners, the average peon won't benifit by pulling Executives down to their level.
     
  5. RDM

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 1, 2007

    Posts: 20,222

    Is there any evidence that this is a likely result or are you just wishing economic collapse and all the woes that will bring on the hopes of a better system developing? It seems unlikely considering no one seems to be able outline what this new system would be or how it would work.
     
  6. Tefal

    Capo Crimine

    Joined: Jun 30, 2007

    Posts: 66,560

    Location: Wales

    You hope millions in the UK are plunged into poverty and hardship?


    Wow.

    My bet is Greece ends up authoritarian and nationalist not super happy socialist fun land.
     
  7. Vespasian777

    Hitman

    Joined: Nov 9, 2011

    Posts: 553

    Location: Bora Bora

    Oh. Ok then. Sorry I called you a halfwit. You seem to be one of the more astute people on here anyway. Some good posts. At least, you know dogma when you see it.
     
  8. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 47,568

    Location: Plymouth

    Typical lefty, hates everyone and wishes poverty on whole countries in the hope of getting to create an authoritarian utopia of state control ;)

    Meanwhile, in the real world, what will actually happen is something rather different, assuming you actually intend to give people a choice...
     
  9. Naffa

    Capodecina

    Joined: Sep 4, 2005

    Posts: 11,455

    Location: Bristol

    Unlike the Thatcherites that hate people in poverty, and think they are only there out of choice. Would you rather we continue the trend of subjecting the poor and vulnerable to market forces, whilst doing everything possible to shield the rich and prosperous from them?

    Not every evil and injustice in the world originates from the left hand side of the aisle, sir.
     
  10. Tefal

    Capo Crimine

    Joined: Jun 30, 2007

    Posts: 66,560

    Location: Wales


    No but the icnrease in power and the very strong sense that they are "in the right" and it's all for the "greater good" tends to mean it ends up a long long way fro many ideals.

    The right/middle capitalist approach does ensure a nice kinda moderation wins out and you don't get the extremes of law.
     
  11. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 47,568

    Location: Plymouth

    You seem to be assuming my smiley ended sentence was serious...
     
  12. Naffa

    Capodecina

    Joined: Sep 4, 2005

    Posts: 11,455

    Location: Bristol

    Urr, yes. :p That, plus you have been saying the same thing for a pretty long while. ;)

    You are right, there. Communist totalitarianism did (and still does) seek to legitimise itself through these means, to a degree that fascism perhaps does not. The latter did not often pretend it was in the business to do anything other than dominate and oppress.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2012
  13. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 47,568

    Location: Plymouth

    I just like winding Amiga up :)

    On a more serious note, some of what I said (ie that a lurch to the left isn't the usual result in situations of significant economic hardship if people are given a choice) is true. Furthermore, the situation in Europe seems to revolve around the population of some states wanting to democratically vote to force others (primarily Germany) to prop them up, yet this hasn't been put to the German electorate yet.

    The Euro is a big problem, because it makes no sense economically the way it is structured, it never has. The fiscal compact doesn't really solve the issues either, as the real problem is a currency union with a lack of fiscal union and fiscal transfers. The UK, for example, works because it shares a currency, and because capital flows between the areas. This doesn't happen in the Eurozone, and without this balance (which works both economically and politically) the currency will be inherently unstable given the diversity of the economies sharing the currency.

    For those who want to force change on the german people, why do they not get a say?
     
  14. Naffa

    Capodecina

    Joined: Sep 4, 2005

    Posts: 11,455

    Location: Bristol

    I agree with all of that.

    What about the German government, and Angela in particular, telling Paris and Athens what their macroeconomic policy must consist of?

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/may/07/eurozone-crisis-merkel-athens-paris

    There's a difference between calling on countries to behave in a certain way, which is a legitimate and acceptable practice, but telling them? I don't like it. You are talking about the German people not getting a say, but what about the Greeks and French (the latter of whom I represent, at the moment ;)) who want a sovereign macroeconomic policy?
     
  15. Tefal

    Capo Crimine

    Joined: Jun 30, 2007

    Posts: 66,560

    Location: Wales

    something that tends to stop it taking hold in many places as the decent people see it coming.

    Extreme left Ideals/revolutionary ieals tend to slip by as people see them far too idealistically.

    But Just to point out right wing economics do not equal fascism as you seem to be trying to say. You might want to be careful as you seem to be doing what you accuse dolph of doing so often.


    That same line of thought apply to people too or just groups of people large enoguh to be "countries"?
     
  16. Iraklis F.C.

    Soldato

    Joined: Nov 16, 2003

    Posts: 6,364

    Location: Thessaloniki

    the EU will fail for one reason only , imho. It is a Union that doesn't take into consideration the variety of cultures, ethics, practices,pros and cons of the members it consists and fusing them into a monolithic corporate state thats made for money making.

    And for those who criticized the outcome of these elections, the ex prime minister has told, no he actually admitted that Greece became the testing ground the last 2 years of radical economic shock "therapy". I wonder what would you have voted for hearing statements like this.
     
  17. Meridian

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 11,889

    Location: Vvardenfell



    Because the Germans are paying for all this. If most of the EUs funding came from Britain instead (while the UK is a nett contributer, it's a by a far lower margin than Germany - Germany bankrolls everyone) do you seriously think we'd sit there and let everyone else **** our money away? He who pays the piper etc. If you want (as some do) the EU to continue, Germany has to stay on-side.


    M
     
  18. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 47,568

    Location: Plymouth

    The instructions from Germany are not given in isolation, they are associated with the provision of bailout and stability program funding. Greece is free to say no and not take the money, what they are not able to do is reject the bailout requirements and continue to receive the cash.

    when you become dependent on something to pay your bills, be it the market or another country, then you will give them control of you. it is one of the reasons why solving the UK debt crisis before it reaches this point is so desirable.
     
  19. elmarko

    Capodecina

    Joined: Sep 22, 2011

    Posts: 10,428

    Location: Portsmouth (Southsea)

    Very short-sighted view for somebody who usually has a little more depth to a opinion.

    I'm disappointed.
     
  20. elmarko

    Capodecina

    Joined: Sep 22, 2011

    Posts: 10,428

    Location: Portsmouth (Southsea)

    The problem with Greece is that the austerity is only going to cripple the country in the long term to ensure they can continue debt payments as long as possible.

    These bailouts are not to protect the Greek people, or the nation - but to ensure the economy does not go under (which would result in a default).

    The loans intentions are nothing more than the protection of assets, with no consideration to the long term damage caused to Greece.

    While a default would cause significant pain, the debt growing at the rate it is will do for an extended period - the current generation of Greeks will suffer from letting it go down the drain but I'd wager good money the next generation will come back much stronger (compared to if we saddle them with absurd debt forever more).

    The purpose of an economy is to serve the nation, the people - not the other way around.

    Our current economic system has failed at that task, the sooner people realise that the better - if that means increased short term pain to encourage change then so be it.