Is now a bad time for buying a new / 4K TV on a budget?

Vexr · 21 Jun 2019 at 20:53

My 12+ year old 43" 1080p LCD TV is reaching the point where it's developing screen defects, prompting me to look into replacing it (albeit without much enthusiasm, as I'd be perfectly content with it if it wasn't for the faults its developing).

Looks like there's some very competitively priced 4K TVs around, to the point where buying one of the few new 1080p ones doesn't make much sense. However, it seems that HDMI 2.1 is just now being released on the most high end models and this looks set to really be the future for TVs, with high refresh rates, HDR, variable refresh rate, and even the gratuitous 8k resolution all being supported.

I suppose when the PS5/Xbox2 is released taking advantage of HDMI 2.1 there may even be a glut on to the market of 4K pre-HDMI 2.1 TVs flooding the used market, creating the opportunity to pick up a steal?

hornetstinger · 21 Jun 2019 at 21:24

Problem is home cinema is always having new features from hdr to hdmi, vsync, to what kind of brain insertion probe you push into your crebral cortex and you need kitchen sink v3 on other gear

That's why stereo I think is is simpler

Vexr · 21 Jun 2019 at 21:52

hornetstinger said:
Problem is home cinema is always having new features from hdr to hdmi, vsync, to what kind of brain insertion probe you push into your crebral cortex and you need kitchen sink v3 on other gear

True, though every other upgrade on HDMI looks like baby steps compared with HDMI 2.0 -> 2.1. Seems to me that calling it HDMI 3.0 would be far more fitting as it's got the entire works and enormous future proofing. Well, minus the occipital jack

hornetstinger · 21 Jun 2019 at 21:55

From 3d to four HDR types...its getting absurd.

Hdmi v3 includes inverted phase tachyon pulse technology you'll need a new blu ray player with phased matched quantum field for bi lateral sync topology.

Vexr · 21 Jun 2019 at 22:04

hornetstinger said:
From 3d to four HDR types...its getting absurd.

Hdmi v3 includes inverted phase tachyon pulse technology you'll need a new blu ray player with phased matched quantum field for bi lateral sync topology.

3D was a fad. I suspect even 8K and HDR won't exactly be changing the world in a permanent way either. However, 4K @ 120 hz with VRR could well become the new gold standard for very many years to come, to match the longevity that 1080p 60 hz enjoyed. And you'll only get it with HDMI 2.1 (or better). HDMI 2.0 or less 4K may well come to be as disappointingly regarded as 720p and 1080i.

hornetstinger · 21 Jun 2019 at 22:09

Vexr said:
3D was a fad. I suspect even 8K and HDR won't exactly be changing the world in a permanent way either. However, 4K @ 120 hz with VRR could well become the new gold standard for very many years to come, to match the longevity that 1080p 60 hz enjoyed. And you'll only get it with HDMI 2.1 (or better). HDMI 2.0 or less 4K may well come to be as disappointingly regarded as 720p and 1080i.

There is more than one sync system though.

At least with freesync and gsync.both still work but with TV sync there can be only one. Like bd and HD DVD, betamax versus VHS etc

lucid · 22 Jun 2019 at 00:35

Vexr said:
My 12+ year old 43" 1080p LCD TV is reaching the point where it's developing screen defects, prompting me to look into replacing it (albeit without much enthusiasm, as I'd be perfectly content with it if it wasn't for the faults its developing).

Looks like there's some very competitively priced 4K TVs around, to the point where buying one of the few new 1080p ones doesn't make much sense. However, it seems that HDMI 2.1 is just now being released on the most high end models and this looks set to really be the future for TVs, with high refresh rates, HDR, variable refresh rate, and even the gratuitous 8k resolution all being supported.

I suppose when the PS5/Xbox2 is released taking advantage of HDMI 2.1 there may even be a glut on to the market of 4K pre-HDMI 2.1 TVs flooding the used market, creating the opportunity to pick up a steal?

Many of the benefits of HDMI 2.1 require a high-end TV, or at least and upper mid-range TV to take advantage of what's on offer.

For a start, higher refresh rates and variable refresh rates require a TV panel that's capable of refreshing more quickly than the basic 50 or 60Hz. This is different from any motion interpolation rate that the TV's video processing circuits might be capable of achieving. I'm talking about the number of times that the LCD or OLED panel can refresh with a new image. Generally you'll find that most mid-range sets have a native refresh of 50/60Hz.

There's a big cost to having panels with 100 or 120Hz refresh, and an even higher cost to go beyond that. If it was feasible to put these panels in more mid-range and entry-level sets then it would have been done already because of the technical advantage it would offer over the competition. I think it's safe to presume then that we are several years away from seeing 100/120Hz native refresh rate panels in the likes of the budget sets sold by Argos and similar.

In fact, if we look at current 'very competitively priced 4K TVs' then they still fall well short of what the current HDMI 2.0 HDCP sets are capable of supporting. The 50/60Hz LCD panel will be edge lit rather than back lit. The colour range may be limited to the same pallet as regular Blu-ray/HDTV rather than Wide Colour Gamut. HDR may be supported in HDR10 and HLG versions which are static metadata, but it's not guaranteed that a dynamic metadata format such as HDR10+ or Dolby Vision will be featured. Linked to this and the back light, the screen's ability to produce the sort of peak brightness to get some pop from even basic HDR will be very limited due to the cost of putting higher power LED lights in there. The list goes on and on.

Safe to say then that there are lots of cost and technical hurdles to overcome just in regular UHD TV before we're going to see a flood HDMI 2.1 sets rendering lower-prices TVs redundant.

Vexr · 22 Jun 2019 at 01:02

@lucid that's interesting. I must admit to knowing far less about TVs than I do about PC monitors, especially regarding advertised refresh rates (unless a TV says something truly ridiculous like being 600 hz then I have tended to go by whatever they list in the spec sheet).

In truth, as I'm not a console player and I place relatively little value on 4K (I don't anticipate signing up for 4K TV services any time soon), then it's the Smart TV features of the newer models that really interest me, and smoothness via high refresh rates would be much appreciated no matter how achieved (my old 1080p TV turns into a blurry mess especially on any horizontally panning shot).

I'd also be very interested in:
1) An Android TV that's capable of installing and running Kodi (with the processing power to back it up)
2) SD card slot with the ability to run video from a range of file formats well
3) Netflix / Amazon Prime built in as an option
4) As above, achieves smoothness whether via high refresh rates or whatever black magic is needed for TV/movie play back (don't really care about console input lag as I don't have a console)
5) Match or exceed the 43" of my current TV

Things I don't actually care much about (yet):
1) 4K
2) VRR
3) HDR
4) OLED/QLED/AMOLED (ironically my PC monitor is QLED, but that feature hasn't exactly rocked my world TBH)

So I suppose I'm really looking for an absolutely fantastic 1080p TV. As soon as I exceed that and step in to 4K territory though, then the pull toward HDMI 2.1 really takes off with thoughts of future proofing.

lucid · 22 Jun 2019 at 02:12

There aren't any absolutely fantastic 1080p TVs new any more. That ship sailed almost 5 years ago. Anything 40" and above that's still native 1080p is there mostly because it's a cheap telly. Cheap rarely equals good.

The bulk of the market is made up of 4K UHD panel TVs in varying qualities from entry-level through to high-end. 1080p is dead as disco as far as the average TV buyer and the TV manufacturers are concerned. All the development is going in to 4K UHD TVs. If you want something good, then unless you're buying a used TV, you need to be looking at 4K TVs even though you won't be making use of the resolution.

With regard to your wish list, I run Kodi on an external Android box. I would never put my long term faith in a TV manufacturer to (a) build in sufficient processing power and (b) keep the damn OS software up to date beyond maybe a 2~3 year window from a model's introduction. My current TV has Netflix and Amazon Prime built in. I don't subscribe to Netflix but do have a Prime account. For that I use a Fire 4K stick for the same reasons as about. I can run Kodi on it too but haven't bothered so far.

SD card slot...... Do people still use that? My TV is networked to my NAS and I can mirror from my Android phone. There are a couple of USB ports including a 3.0 one, so a solid state HDD or USB flash drive would be my choices for physically connecting a drive.

There are some remaining stocks of the Panasonic FX750 in a few stores. I think this was a £1200 set. The 50" is going for £800. It has a 100/120Hz panel and very good motion processing.

Vexr · 22 Jun 2019 at 03:57

lucid said:
There aren't any absolutely fantastic 1080p TVs new any more. That ship sailed almost 5 years ago. Anything 40" and above that's still native 1080p is there mostly because it's a cheap telly. Cheap rarely equals good.

The bulk of the market is made up of 4K UHD panel TVs in varying qualities from entry-level through to high-end. 1080p is dead as disco as far as the average TV buyer and the TV manufacturers are concerned. All the development is going in to 4K UHD TVs. If you want something good, then unless you're buying a used TV, you need to be looking at 4K TVs even though you won't be making use of the resolution.

With regard to your wish list, I run Kodi on an external Android box. I would never put my long term faith in a TV manufacturer to (a) build in sufficient processing power and (b) keep the damn OS software up to date beyond maybe a 2~3 year window from a model's introduction. My current TV has Netflix and Amazon Prime built in. I don't subscribe to Netflix but do have a Prime account. For that I use a Fire 4K stick for the same reasons as about. I can run Kodi on it too but haven't bothered so far.

SD card slot...... Do people still use that? My TV is networked to my NAS and I can mirror from my Android phone. There are a couple of USB ports including a 3.0 one, so a solid state HDD or USB flash drive would be my choices for physically connecting a drive.

There are some remaining stocks of the Panasonic FX750 in a few stores. I think this was a £1200 set. The 50" is going for £800. It has a 100/120Hz panel and very good motion processing.

I suppose I should've expected this. I appreciate your breakdown of the situation.

My current 1080p TV isn't completely un-smart thanks to it being attached to my now ancient Core 2 Duo 'Media Centre' blu-ray laptop, which outputs HDMI @ 1080p/60 and has an SD card slot, though it takes a good 10+ minutes to boot up and has struggled massively with certain Kodi content / video types, unable to achieve 1080p @ whatever is deemed smooth fps from certain sources (CPU usage always near 100% despite undervolting to eliminate thermal throttling). I haven't tried it with Netflix or Amazon as it's cumbersome enough already. It would be very nice to have all the functionality that laptop has but provided natively though a Smart TV (and preferably remote controlled and with the CPU power to handle the content comfortably and quickly).

The Panasonic FX750 looks impressive, but honestly, if I was to consider a new TV I think £300-£400 @ 43" would be what I'd be looking at as I simply don't consider TVs that much more worth it (this coming from someone who spent more on a PC monitor).

lucid · 22 Jun 2019 at 12:26

To put it in PC parlance, you've got Core i5 aspirations but a Celeron budget. You're going to have to cut your cloth accordingly.

TVs at 43-50" range in price from roughly £300 up to £2500, so a budget of £300-£400 puts you firmly in bottom-end entry-level land. I think you'll need to concentrate on finding a set that does the basics right, then look at external add-ons to provide the creature features you crave that the TV budget alone just can't stretch to without making fatal compromises in its picture reproduction.

The Hisense H50A6200 has a reasonable 50hz panel, decent colour reproduction, and enough brightness that it should be a step up from your current 43" set unless that TV was top of Samsung's range seven years ago.

It has some smart features, but honestly a Firestick would show it a clean pair of heels. Amazon is a massive company and can afford to subsidise the manufacture of Firesticks because it creates a revenue stream for their subscription and pay-per-view services. Hisense doesn't have that. Spending money to make a slick set of smart features means cutting the budget for something else in the TV. Does it make sense to have a crap picture just so you can have a nice built-in OS?

Treat the telly purchase like a monitor. Forego any features that can be added at higher quality with external boxes. Focus on getting the best damned display for your budget.

barmyllama · 23 Jun 2019 at 08:22

You might want to consider that a 12 year old 43 LCD takes up as much physical space as a modern 55".

My mother in law insisted on replacing her old 32" with a new one of the same size and it looked lost in the room. We ended up getting her a 43".

So in light of that how about a Samsung UE55NU7021KXXU, current £394 on the River site.

chaparral · 23 Jun 2019 at 12:37

barmyllama said:
You might want to consider that a 12 year old 43 LCD takes up as much physical space as a modern 55".

My mother in law insisted on replacing her old 32" with a new one of the same size and it looked lost in the room. We ended up getting her a 43".

So in light of that how about a Samsung UE55NU7021KXXU, current £394 on the River site.

Agree

My 65" OLED is roughly exactly the same size as my old 2008 50" pioneer kuro plasma was

Dervious · 23 Jun 2019 at 18:33

chaparral said:
Agree

My 65" OLED is roughly exactly the same size as my old 2008 50" pioneer kuro plasma was

How "exactly roughly" would that be ?

Roughly 9 inches wider and 4 inches taller ?

chaparral · 24 Jun 2019 at 05:26

Dervious said:
How "exactly roughly" would that be ?

Roughly 9 inches wider and 4 inches taller ?

With the side speakers fitted the 50" LX508D is 144.5cm wide , My 65" AF9 is 144.9cm wide

Yes the AF9 is taller by about 10cm

hornetstinger · 24 Jun 2019 at 06:26

chaparral said:
With the side speakers fitted the 50" LX508D is 144.5cm wide , My 65" AF9 is 144.9cm wide

Yes the AF9 is taller by about 10cm

Does your af9 have decent side speakers like the pioneer?

chaparral · 24 Jun 2019 at 13:31

hornetstinger said:
Does your af9 have decent side speakers like the pioneer?

The AF9 speakers are built into the screen

https://www.sony.co.uk/electronics/...-EN_GL-2018-05-M29-SEEHOW-TOUT03-SOUNDQUALITY

I use my TV built in speakers as the centre channel in my 5.1 setup

Martynt74 · 24 Jun 2019 at 16:12

lucid said:
With regard to your wish list, I run Kodi on an external Android box. I would never put my long term faith in a TV manufacturer to (a) build in sufficient processing power and (b) keep the damn OS software up to date beyond maybe a 2~3 year window from a model's introduction. My current TV has Netflix and Amazon Prime built in. I don't subscribe to Netflix but do have a Prime account. For that I use a Fire 4K stick for the same reasons as about. I can run Kodi on it too but haven't bothered so far.

Out of interest, any reason you don't run Kodi on your Fire stick?

I run a Fire TV 4k (the box) and have wondered about changing it for one of the more modern Android boxes.

hornetstinger · 24 Jun 2019 at 17:59

chaparral said:
The AF9 speakers are built into the screen
https://www.sony.co.uk/electronics/...-EN_GL-2018-05-M29-SEEHOW-TOUT03-SOUNDQUALITY

I use my TV built in speakers as the centre channel in my 5.1 setup

You should use the matching center speaker from the main stereo pair.

The Sony speaker won't sonically match nor (if your mains are any good) match the dB output compared to the mains

chaparral · 24 Jun 2019 at 18:46

hornetstinger said:
You should use the matching center speaker from the main stereo pair.

The Sony speaker won't sonically match nor (if your mains are any good) match the dB output compared to the mains

Yes your right it would sound a bit better f I used the matching center speaker but I like the cleaner setup more

I can adjust the TV center speaker dB loudness by the AV amp as it my AV amp that powers the TV speaker