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Is 'Social Justice' a Cultural Revolution Reboot?

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by Herojuana, Apr 11, 2019.

  1. mid_gen

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Dec 20, 2004

    Posts: 8,415

    Martin Luther King is a whiny SJW just out to make white people feel bad about themselves.

    /s (just in case)

    The thing with progressives is, the thing that really frightens conservatives....progressives *always* win in the end.

    Conservatives always end up the embarrassing stain on history, all these silly little boys crying about SJWs are going to look back and cringe, if their future employers don't dig it up first....
     
  2. efish

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jan 11, 2014

    Posts: 1,321

    The Lady doth protest too much;)

    Civil rights movement won. As can be seen in contemporary attitudes to racism i.e it does not exist anymore.

    L.D. Reid & K.E. Birchard, The People Doth Protest Too Much: Explaining Away Subtle Racisim, Journal of Language and Social Psychology, August 2010
     
  3. Herojuana

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Nov 24, 2007

    Posts: 1,261

    Location: Lancashire

    I think personally, the issue becomes cloudy when we regard all forms of "social justice" as equal and the same.

    I think the title of the thread is maybe unnecessarily blanket and somewhat provocative.

    I've shared evidence that some hard line identitarian forms of 'Social Justice©' can be argued to have similarities to the cultural revolution. And one good form can unfortunately lead people to the other.

    What do you think of the interpretation of this data in the video below? Appreciate your thoughts.

    (link to publication) https://www.voterstudygroup.org/publications/2016-elections/political-divisions-in-2016-and-beyond

     
  4. Herojuana

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Nov 24, 2007

    Posts: 1,261

    Location: Lancashire

    Dude I don't think anyone disapproving of extreme 'Social Justice' would ever argue that, it's a strawman.

    “I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.” — Martin Luther King Jr.

    Some elements within the social justice crowd have gone full circle and are completely ignoring the principles that MLK espoused. Some examples of this are documented in the thread
     
  5. mid_gen

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Dec 20, 2004

    Posts: 8,415

    You should probably rethink using the term 'Social Justice' perjoratively before you start if you want to have a reasonable discussion with anyone.

    The reason your video is trying to conflate progressivism with the Cultural Revolution is because it's trying to invoke the Great American Boogeyman of Communism to further divide people.
     
  6. Herojuana

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Nov 24, 2007

    Posts: 1,261

    Location: Lancashire

    I don't think that was the intent of the video's author. I appreciate it isn't the best title and i'm sure it can be improved for this thread. What would be a better one?
     
  7. efish

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jan 11, 2014

    Posts: 1,321

    It was done with the best of intentions. He did not intent to say something stupid.

    We never do. Its a mistake we all make. But it is an error.
     
  8. efish

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jan 11, 2014

    Posts: 1,321

    I can't comment on this.

    It seems to be using some kind of 'rule base' I am not familiar with. Effectively not knowing the rules it's just a lot of noise. Rule based systems are very bad at dealing with unseen or unexpected input.

    Brittle and Deterministic.

    The human factor is always the difficult part its easy to be critical here but with this material criticism is essential.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2019
  9. mid_gen

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Dec 20, 2004

    Posts: 8,415

    So what is the point of this thread? To argue that some over-enthusiastic student 'extremists' on a college campus suggesting a peaceful demonstration is good reason to tar the whole progression movement as akin to a violent upheaval that scarred the lives of millions and left countless dead?

    Presumably if that's the case, shall we have a discussion about the right wing extremists that actually murder people?

    Still want to conflate the actions of the few with the many? What political upheaval should we compare the right wing to?
     
  10. efish

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jan 11, 2014

    Posts: 1,321

    Comparison.


    A. Find a suitable enemy (soft target preferable)

    B. A suitable victim. Someone you can identify with (the it could be you factor)

    C. Consensus that the beliefs and actions will have a wider social effect, the target is not an isolated cultural group it presents a wider potential threat (something needs to be done/ unless something is done)

    The key ingredients of a good old moral panic.

    Add a splash of essentialism just for good measure.



    p.s what happens if you apply the 'The Law of Cohen' strictly here? Deploy as a rigid rule based system? Its not going to take any prisoners when it gets a pattern match.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2019
  11. robgmun

    Capodecina

    Joined: Apr 30, 2006

    Posts: 14,987

    Location: London

    That's not how facts work....or are you just a little horny?
     
  12. JeditOjanen

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 7, 2011

    Posts: 4,393

    If you really believe that, try walking down a street in America while black.
     
  13. Schlong&Stable

    Mobster

    Joined: Apr 27, 2013

    Posts: 4,029

    We need to make a distinction between 21st century progressives and social progression.

    Yes, historically there has been social progress. If there wasn't, our societies would stagnate and die. But the idea that social progress always beats conservatism is clearly untrue, or else we'd be in constant revolution. Far more attempts at "social progress" are crushed by the forces of conservatism than ever succeed. And that's the way it should be, conservatives are the barrier that keeps the worst aspects of social progress from taking root. It moderates the extremes and destroys the worst of it.

    21st century progressivism which is what I suspect you actually mean meanwhile has no real history of great success. In the last few decades we've indulged in a great social experiment with gay rights, mass immigration and various other liberal ideas. This experiment has been paid for by decades of relative wealth and abundance in the West, but that seems to be coming towards an end. Which is why we see increasing push-back against these ideas. Some such as gay rights will probably survive the challenges to come, whereas others will be crushed.
     
  14. Herojuana

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Nov 24, 2007

    Posts: 1,261

    Location: Lancashire

    What? :D
     
  15. efish

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jan 11, 2014

    Posts: 1,321

    [​IMG]
    The way in which facts can become compatible with any number of different theories works like this (see next post for example or the difference of interpretation here, altering, situation/ context).

    Looking at the visual data that comes along with neuro biological research on the social self, does not generally make me feel horny.

    Does it have that effect on you? Or are you developing an alternative lizard King thesis;) ?
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2019
  16. efish

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jan 11, 2014

    Posts: 1,321

    Read the rest. Highlighted parts that may help. No its not a personal belief rather a short summery of the belief examined in the article.

    Sorry I thought the text was clear particularly given the title of the article I cited. "That people doth protest too much: Explaining away subtle racism"

    Link to the abstract here
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2019
  17. BowdonUK

    Mobster

    Joined: Jan 17, 2016

    Posts: 2,593

    I think a lot of todays actions come from people being so insecure they can't tolerate others opinions.

    The sad thing is that private business is removing free speech and shutting people out of social areas but because you don't like person A then most people go along with it.

    A lot of people today, the social justice types are immature babies who will agree to anything that they consider to be the current trending opinion, and they won't speak out against an injustice unless other peoples do.

    Conservatives have never advanced anything. The clue is in the name. The only 'trouble causers' are these militant left people who cause disasters in the world and big brother helps cover up their history so society never learns and we keep repeating it over and over again.

    The problem with the lefts movements is they are open to being infiltrated and exploited.
     
  18. Thecaferacer

    Hitman

    Joined: Feb 3, 2019

    Posts: 694

    There is an academic thread that the Balkan war was born from a Serbian victim complex that lead to Serbian nationalism. SJW culture feels more like this to me rather than Mao's cultural Revolution.

    It's the idea that I or my people have been historically wronged. I am oppressed and powerless but I am also powerful. And on the basis of this I can justify doing anything I want to you. A psychologist would have a field day.
     
  19. No1newts

    Capodecina

    Joined: May 24, 2009

    Posts: 19,618

    Location: North East

    I've actually found myself agreeing with Nietzsche and what he actually quite presciently pointed out, namely that those who are useless in a society will try with all their might to drag everyone down to their level and spend their time in a constant state of offence as a way to drive this.

    I personally don't think people are equal, there is no such thing as equal and there is no arguement anyone can logically posit otherwise. However, I do not think this lack of equality is a bad thing and in fact people being different is a good thing as everyone brings different skills, abilities, outlooks etc and society would benefit if we work together to embrace these differences and to use unique perspectives to prosper.

    The irony that I at once both love and loathe of the SJW movement is their absolute commitment to equality: "we are all equal, X person deserves the same rights, their views deserve the same treatment etc etc" BUT as soon as someone asserts something the SJW movement disagrees with, their opinion (and normally the individual themselves) are trashed and destroyed as being unworthy and being in some way deviant. The irony they simply cannot see in their own cause is that everyone is equal, everyone has a voice, as long as you agree with us.

    In the same manner the politics is not a straight line but circular, with the political extremes being a lot closer than they think, so too are morality politics. Those who exclaim most loudly about freedom and equality are just as inflexible and draconic in destroying and shutting down those who disagree with them as are the extreme conservatives. It's sadly hilarious.

    The SJW movement has no purpose other than lashing out and being offended. They have no goal other than destroying that which is: there may be an arguement it may need to be destroyed but if so you need to have a plan to rebuild at the end but they do not have this. Whereas extreme conservatives only want to blindly maintain, extreme liberals only want to break it and as always those in the middle are left picking up the pieces of the kids at the extremes.

    I honestly don't know how we fix this, but as I said the extremes are both wrong and as with anything we need consenus. What the extreme conservative and liberal fail to understand as nothing has ever been achieved of note in humanity by an individual, every single achievement of note requires collaboration and humans to work together, fact. We either come together and accept differences of opinion, ability and viewpoint but despite this work together and achieve. The second option is societal segregation of those who "agree" with one another and never the twain shall meet, though of course in the world we live in is nigh on impossible.

    TLDR, we are not equal and no amount of SJW crying will fix that and they need to stop driving in wedges for the sake of it. Instead we need to accept differences and work together to better ourselves.
     
  20. efish

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jan 11, 2014

    Posts: 1,321

    Bold statement.

    Ideally I think everyone should be equal before the law. That would go under the heading 'equality with regard to rights or freedoms'.

    I don't think inequality here would be a good thing. Certainly would not be a democratic thing.


    I think its rather easy to logically posit its existence

    A. its an idea; you may think its a wrong idea but it certainly exists as an idea.

    B. Equality is also an ideal (which suggests reality may be different from the abstract value). i.e.
    C. it forms the basis of many working concepts in modern democratic states.

    Equality and inequality refer to the relationship we have with other things, not the things themselves. Both are aspects of the relationship we have with other things and both qualities certainly exist here.

    In a Democratic state the ideal of equality and the relationship it has with the state ensures the individual freedom of its citizens.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2019