Issue at work - Advice on what to do

[cm1179]

jumped up graduate fellow.

it does smack of this a little (sorry, op but it does, you used the word 'demand' for instance lol) welcome to the real world, the world of following instruction, biting your lip and working your way up through merit. following instruction carries a lot of merit.

imagine if they did listen to you and you find yourself out of your depth and the project goes **** up?

 

[Shicky]

Comedy Answer -

You sound like some of graduates I've worked with. You think the world owes you something because you have a degree, probably from a reasonable university, and probably in some lefty type subject.

Honest answer -

Realistically, if its a major multinational, to a point, they probably couldn't care less what you think. You are fresh out of Uni, have no experience, and they were probably doing just fine before you pitched up. As a graduate entrant you need to make it your lifes work to learn whatever they put you on. I know people who came into major corporations on graduate schemes who got thrown straight into coding and just got on with it, even without any experience in the subject. You can't honestly think you can pick and chose what you do, christ, you can't even do that at Tescos.

You need to take a step back and realise if you have any personal impact issues. Kicking off saying you don't want to work on xyz in my opinion will seal your fate. Jump before you are pushed, etc, etc.

Just slow down, realise they aren't going to throw you on hundreds of expensive external courses (Expensive as by the sounds of it you are in consultancy... remember they have the course cost AND the lack of your income when you aren't at a client site).

Career progression takes time, and a load of hard work and determination. Make the most of every role and situation you get offered and build up your experiences. If it isn't working for you consider leaving, but remember how it will look on your CV. You really want to do 2-3 years before 'giving up'.

I am not under the impression I am owed something at all, I am well aware I need to work extremely hard to prove myself, therefore getting the crappy projects for a few years before getting my teeth into anything good. However I expect the crappy projects to be done RIGHT, so I learn useful skills in the process and the client gets a product they're happy with.

I realise they won't care too much what I think, though I am a bit perplexed by people thinking I am being a moan or something by having a problem with this, there is no upside:

1) I am coding in a dead language, it will not be useful going forward and the style of coding used by the others means I am actually wasting time coding like a retard so they can understand it and it fits in with their style. Also html in tables!? I mean come on, its idiotic!

2) In later life I could lie about the project and say it was based in a decent language and I learned a lot, however I won't have actually had a learning experience, more one of dumbing down.

3) If the client have any clue they will tell them to get out after reading the spec, therefore my name will be associated with a dire project which failed at the first hurdle, not a notch I want on my belt.

By leaving this situation and just doing what I'm told, surely I am not making the most of the situation as you advise?

 

[cm1179]

1) I am coding in a dead language, it will not be useful going forward and the style of coding used by the others means I am actually wasting time coding like a retard so they can understand it and it fits in with their style. Also html in tables!? I mean come on, its idiotic!

2) In later life I could lie about the project and say it was based in a decent language and I learned a lot, however I won't have actually had a learning experience, more one of dumbing down.

3) If the client have any clue they will tell them to get out after reading the spec, therefore my name will be associated with a dire project which failed at the first hurdle, not a notch I want on my belt.

By leaving this situation and just doing what I'm told, surely I am not making the most of the situation as you advise?

you need to read this back, seriously. you're running before you can walk. you'll trip up and get eaten alive. they're employing YOU, you're not doing them any favours whatsoever, you'd do well to remember this.

 

[Participant]

3) If the client have any clue they will tell them to get out after reading the spec, therefore my name will be associated with a dire project which failed at the first hurdle, not a notch I want on my belt.

In what world will you get the blame, as a coder, for something the project managers have obviously decided? I think you think you're more important than you really are. In any case you've also voiced your concerns which gets you off the hook.

 

[Shicky]

Just do what you're told, you're a graduate. Feedback is one thing, refusing to be involved because you disagree with the method is another entirely. Accept that you don't in fact know everything, and that there might be very good reasons that you're not party to as to why they're doing things a certain way. There are people better and cleverer than you in almost every organisation, jumped up graduate fellow.

I fully understand what you mean, as I said I am far from the best coder or graduate out there. Perhaps demanding they change things is going a little far and realistically not something I would do. However I feel compelled to at least get my point over that what the company are looking to produce is amateur and will not reflect well on them. Put yourself in the client's shoes.

There is no reason why ASP is being chosen over other languages other than this is all the team leader has experience in. As mentioned even the html coding is done in an awful manner.

 

[cm1179]

I fully understand what you mean, as I said I am far from the best coder or graduate out there. Perhaps demanding they change things is going a little far and realistically not something I would do. However I feel compelled to at least get my point over that what the company are looking to produce is amateur and will not reflect well on them. Put yourself in the client's shoes.

There is no reason why ASP is being chosen over other languages other than this is all the team leader has experience in. As mentioned even the html coding is done in an awful manner.

not your problem. do your part of things accompanied by a report. when things don't work out for them (like you seem to think they won't) point them to your report which should include recommendations for improvements or alternatives.

do not stray from their spec, you will get crucified, no matter how much you feel it is the right thing to do it is not your call, yet.

for all you know, there could be a valid reason you are using the coding you have been told to.

 

[Participant]

I fully understand what you mean, as I said I am far from the best coder or graduate out there. Perhaps demanding they change things is going a little far and realistically not something I would do. However I feel compelled to at least get my point over that what the company are looking to produce is amateur and will not reflect well on them. Put yourself in the client's shoes.

In fact you'd make the perfect teacher. My wife's colleagues are all like you .

Understanding what is and what is not within your remit is an important part of being a company man. You don't seem to be that guy so I'd leave if you cannot face the fact that until you're a boss, you're paid to do what you're told once you've raised your concerns in the correct way.

 

[edscdk]

1) I am coding in a dead language, it will not be useful going forward and the style of coding used by the others means I am actually wasting time coding like a retard so they can understand it and it fits in with their style. Also html in tables!? I mean come on, its idiotic!

You need to learn how to work in a professional environment, this is NOT a professional stance... it is a spoiled teenager / uni grad rant...

you should voice your concerns to your manager (dead language, html tables are possibly valid points the other points are NOT valid) in an email or at a meeting (followed up my a email confirming the results of the meeting)

I dont like that language is jsut not a valid point on any level

 

[Shicky]

Well I voiced in a team meeting my concerns over the method of implementation - which again I can ensure you ASP has not been chosen for any practical reason, however there is no official record of this. cm1179 you mention a report, how would you advise to do this, basically a writeup of potential pitfalls I see in the project while doing the best not to offend anyone? Do I just e-mail the team leader so there is an official record?

What you guys have said does make sense, I'm the little guy in the company and while I may think my opinion matters, it doesn't, the best thing I can do for myself is shell out exactly what they want and know that I've raised the issues I see.

Don't know how I came off as jumped up! Seemed fairly clearcut to me but I guess I have much to learn

 

[jimjamuk]

1. read the spec

2. highlight a couple of issues early doors

3. let someone make a decision above you

4. do the best you can and if the project fails step 2 should keep you out the firing line and the person in step 3 in it

5. tuck experience away and move onto the next project

if this happens 3 or 4 times in a row - jump ship. If not then you may gain some respect and people might start taking your advice in step 1 seriously

 

[edscdk]

The actual project is fine and I would be more than happy to work on it, my issue is with what they're going to deliver or how they're going about it. They're producing a spec now including the technology being used and future proofing. If you're using a language which has been dead for over a decade how can that possibly be justified? .

you sound like my brother, he is a very good programmer but cannot hold down a job because he has kept his graduate attitude...

 

[cm1179]

cm1179 you mention a report, how would you advise to do this, basically a writeup of potential pitfalls I see in the project while doing the best not to offend anyone? Do I just e-mail the team leader so there is an official record?

anything that flags up in your mind through the project and sets off an 'errr' first reaction. log it, date it, type it up. reference it once the project has finished with what you would have done instead.

only show it to a senior if problems occur. it's good practice and a good housekeeping routine. a little extra work but carries a lot of merit. whatever you do, only 'suggest' don't give the impression what they've done is poor.

if you come across well, you may even get assigned to a side project. even if it bares no fruit, it looks great on a CV, is great experience and a massive confidence builder. good bargaining chip come wage review time too.

 

[wildman]

no. do what you're paid to do, follow instruction.

This exactly. If you are an operator and not a policy maker then the good news is no matter how pear shaped the project goes you can't get nailed providing you have been 1. Productive and 2. Followed direction from the project managers.

Sometimes you just have to swallow pride and do the job to get the experience before moving on.

 

[Shicky]

anything that flags up in your mind through the project and sets off an 'errr' first reaction. log it, date it, type it up. reference it once the project has finished with what you would have done instead.

only show it to a senior if problems occur. it's good practice and a good housekeeping routine. a little extra work but carries a lot of merit. whatever you do, only 'suggest' don't give the impression what they've done is poor.

if you come across well, you may even get assigned to a side project. even if it bares no fruit, it looks great on a CV, is great experience and a massive confidence builder. good bargaining chip come wage review time too.

Thanks cm1179, I really appreciate the advice and think this is how I'll go about it. So basically if I get called in for the hair drier treatment I can say, 'Well I highlighted some issues I felt may cause problems in a team meeting and went on to prepare a short report which you can read if you wish?'

As mentioned I'm a fresh grad and obviously it appears I'm a bit too idealistic, due to my inexperience I have absolutely no idea what the correct approach is to take in these situations.

 

[leaskovski]

When I read HTML earlier in this thread... I thought, how is that coding!? lol

Then I saw ASP....

Is this a new product or an existing solution? There might be reasons as to why ASP has been chosen... not because you think it is all the team leader knows, but it might be all the TEAM knows. Switching to something else could potentially put the project at risk/increased timescales/etc, etc....

But i could be talking pony.

 

[mp3duck]

Is this a new product or an existing solution? There might be reasons as to why ASP has been chosen...

Good point in it probably being an existing solution. He mentioned that the project uses tables a lot, so that does imply it is an existing solution.

It's highly likely it was developed several years ago, when classic ASP was much more prevalent, and before people started to vear away from using tables for layouts.

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it" is a good motto. There is probably no practical reason to redevelop the site in a new language.

If you're just being tasked with adding new features, it's going to be a lot cheaper to work with the existing code, rather than re write the whole project from scratch.

 

[TommyV]

Shicky, this is your boss.

You're fired.

 

[Shicky]

As for the existing solution that isn't really true, they had a bunch of placement students knock up a mock website for some screenshots/documentation. If there was a large system in place then I could deal with it as it would add a great deal of work to refactor but in this case we're talking about a login and a few forms.

To give a sense of how bad the current state is the forms/database contain paragraph_1, paragraph_2, paragraph_3 - it really is very poor.

 

[jaybee]

Skim reading the thread and basically yeah, this stuff happens for the majority of people in IT roles. I'm asked to do stuff day in day out that's poor for the business and often outright stupidity. But I do it. I'm paid to follow orders. My opinion is valued and listened to but ultimately the business choses what it wants based on various decisions but more often than not budget. I mean what do you realistically want? If you are unhappy and think you can do better the hard truth is, leave, or say something. You are hardly going to get fired by telling them atleast some of what you say in the OP. They can't help if they don't know how you feel.

 

[cm1179]

Thanks cm1179, I really appreciate the advice and think this is how I'll go about it. So basically if I get called in for the hair drier treatment I can say, 'Well I highlighted some issues I felt may cause problems in a team meeting and went on to prepare a short report which you can read if you wish?'

As mentioned I'm a fresh grad and obviously it appears I'm a bit too idealistic, due to my inexperience I have absolutely no idea what the correct approach is to take in these situations.

essentially, yeah. you're following instruction, whether you agree with it or not but the right attitude is to follow instruction but come up with solutions (as a side issue - don't let it take you off the project path) and voice them should problems arise.

i sympathise with your situation, i've been there, although in a different field. i remember being 21 and punching above my weight under a manager who i often didn't see eye to eye with but you have to play the waiting game, respect their authority and essentially get on with it, which is often easier said than done.

as i said, don't run before you can walk, you'll learn from this and don't burn yourself out and find yourself thinking 'i don't get paid enough to do this'.

managers like to see people thinking out of the box, they don't like to be criticised. there is a tact to going about what you need to do. a detailed report is a good way to go about it and is good for reference on future assignments.

put yourself in your managers position, how would you feel if a graduate rubbished your ideas?