John Carter flop to cost Walt Disney $200m

Confusing 'good' with 'successful'

Good is subjective though.

What you've said clearly suggests that they are not films that you personally enjoy, however the fact that they have been so hugely successful means that they are enjoyed by a large cross section of society... so thus are considered good.

To bring back that logic to this post.
John Carter isn't considered to be a very good film, it's not been very successful.
 
Seriously?

I mean, do you seriously not know what the SS was?

Link

I'm amazed you didn't get the joke and don't know what the SS is.

Something that may be obvious to you may not be obvious to someone else.

I've not come across it before, it goes as far as to say someone wouldn't know what that an apple was an apple unless they were educated to know so...
 
You have no idea what you're talking about.

Marketing people make sure that the product being sold is seen in as many places as possible. See when you say "all you need to do is put a picture online" well, what marketing people do is put it online then go about telling the entire world to go check out the picture. The vast majority of viral videos are marketed the same way.

And the genius of it is that the best viral marketing campaigns seem to come out of no where when in fact tons of people do the work behind the scenes.

How do I know this? I work with PR people on a daily basis. They work so hard and receive absolutely no recognition for what they do. Nor do they expect to get recognition, I hasten to add.

So the biggest portion of that money is spent not on the actual marketing materials, but on hiring the right people with the right resources to ensure whatever it is you're selling is marketed correctly.

Interestingly your entire post smacks of the attitude of a person who really isn't aware just how much marketing and advertising pervade our daily lives. Which is good in one way (it's working) but bad in another (just because you can't see it working doesn't mean that it isn't working).


Anyway, on the actual film itself...

Not only was $100m spent on marketing, but $100m on the wrong kind of marketing. The director had so much control over the film that he had them edit the trailers exactly as he wanted them.

Meaning that we got three different trailers which essentially showed three different films. Interest in the film actually started to decline as a result. A marketing company can only do so much, but when the person who has control over the film demands you keep changing it then that marketing campaign is destined to fail because you're confusing the public. That's basically what happened there.

Madness.

Good article on it here: http://www.vulture.com/2012/03/john-carter-doomed-by-first-trailer.html

I bolded the bit where you made sweeping generalisation and showed your lack of knowledge on the subject.

PR... working really really hard, to make you think they are really working.

Where did I say put one picture up online? No where, you brought up a picture and passive advertising, and thus billboards being worthwhile and you managed to mention this because I didn't list every single possible type of marketing, the trailer has and always will being the most persuasive tool in getting people to see or not see a movie.

If you create a picture and start popping it all over the internet several things are important, billboards, WORLDWIDE in PHYSICAL locations mean literally thousands upon thousands of billboards which all cost money. One picture on IGN's frontpage(which costs money) will both, cost magnitudes LESS than billboards worldwide...... and can at the same time be seen by the ENTIRE WORLD.

That is why PR is a sham and marketing has been working insanely hard to pretend the internet doesn't exist.

I also very specifically said that not everyone would see an online only campaign... however, the vast majority of people that went to see THIS movie WOULD, and by spending $10's millions more than necessary, would you gain any of that back by the few you missed, very very unlikely.

A huge cost is paying all the advertising firms as you said, because again you have the internet, one website, worldwide availability, the real world, you pay different companies in every country in the world to have the people there see it.

The cost of knocking up a trailer, and putting a picture of the leading guy on a poster, you can pretend that costs the earth, it doesn't.


For any movie I can think of, I've seen adverts dozens of times in the build up to a release, dozens of posters, when, beyond the first one everything else is a waste. PR's job is to GET YOU TO SPEND MONEY ON PR, that is their entire job, unless you spend money on more ad's, they make no money, so their job is telling you relentlessly that more advertising will lead to more revenue.

You can in this day and age get 95% coverage for any film, with a very small number of people working on an internet only campaign then having every cinema/film/current events/thousand of other websites talk about it and relink everything you want linked..... for free.

Advertising is only as pervasive as... firstly, you want it to be , secondly, as much as PR can con you into paying for, and thirdly, not even slightly as effective as PR people tell you it is.

There is no one I've met in the past 20 years who would not hear about the latest film even if they never saw an advert on tv or a billboard, who would also have seen this movie.

You also forget a fairly key factor which PR people won't tell you, if it became NOT standard to put up billboards and pay for expensive TV ad's......... people would actively go and check what films are coming up soon THEMSELVES, and find your incredibly cheap and identically as effective internet campaign anyway.

What was the last film anyone went to see they hadn't seen discussed, mentioned or saw the trailer online? I can't think of one since realistically, not long after the internet "took off". When was the last time I didn't flick to another channel when adverts came on because they suck....... can't remember either.

I'd echo some of what Woody__ has said.

$100 million is a lot of money, but you need to remember that this is a big budget popcorn movie and that it's marketing budget is for the entire world on a near simultaneous release.

Just for reference, both Avatar and Transformers 3 had marketing budgets of $150 million.

That budget includes far more than what an earlier poster thinks. It's fees for numerous PR agencies around the world, wages, TV ads, Radio ads, Print ads, Cinema Trailers, Online ads, the Website, Advanced Preview Screenings, Promotional Tie-Ins, Merchandise, Star Guest Appearances etc...

You can't sell an entire film like this on the back of just a YouTube video and some online ads. You need to remember that just because this might be how you see something and consume it, doesn't mean it's the same for everybody else around the world.

I bolded where you made a lot of assumptions as well. I didn't pretend the budget doesn't included all of what you listed, I mentioned the biggest budget items and pointed out why they suck, a lot.

Secondly, another movie wasting craploads on marketing doesn't mean its not a waste. Advanced preview screenings, online ad's, posters, etc, etc, cost a minimal amount of that $100mil and would get huge coverage.

Again as I highlighted above, currently IF people don't want to, they don't have to look for films coming soon info because its thrown in their faces all the time..... if it wasn't people WOULD find out what films were coming up and where would they do that, the internet.

I don't assume everyone consumes info the same way I do, I KNOW they CAN do it the same way I do and I also know they would. If someone who likes going to the cinema hasn't seen a film billboard or ad on TV for a while would they:-

A/ Never ever go to a film again.
B/Go online and find out what films are going on.

It REALLY is that simple and the only people to ever tell you otherwise are.... PR guys.

If I want to know instantly what films are coming up do I go downstairs and watch TV hoping to catch film adverts, to I randomly walk aimlessly around town looking for billboards that might tell me, or do I go on IMDB and get presented instantly with pictures, info, trailers on every film that has any relevance?

if PR people aren't selling you millions in PR... they aren't making money.

Some of the single best "viral" campaigns consist of a poster, or a countdown timer on a website, you're talking about literally a couple grand creating HUGE amounts of interest, and this almost always happens online, in advance of trailers, and so where are people looking for the latest info updates.... online.
 
Tbf Hollywood accounting is something special though, isn't Harry Potter making a loss technically or something :p

Yes, the IMF are actually investigating Warner Bros because of this.

I really do think it's suspicious hollywood accounting at the heart of the negative spin on this movie. Worldwide it has actually made a decent return, much more in terms of percentages than many other movies before it.

The Hollywood Reporter says that last year's biggest flop was Mars Needs Moms, which cost $150m to make and only took $39m at the box office....[/]

John carter cost $250m to make and has already made about $180 in its first 2 weeks worldwide.

Disney is up to something.
 
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I bolded where you made a lot of assumptions as well. I didn't pretend the budget doesn't included all of what you listed, I mentioned the biggest budget items and pointed out why they suck, a lot.

Secondly, another movie wasting craploads on marketing doesn't mean its not a waste. Advanced preview screenings, online ad's, posters, etc, etc, cost a minimal amount of that $100mil and would get huge coverage.

Again as I highlighted above, currently IF people don't want to, they don't have to look for films coming soon info because its thrown in their faces all the time..... if it wasn't people WOULD find out what films were coming up and where would they do that, the internet.

Yet people read newspapers, magazines, watch tv and see previews and reviews in such mediums. My Dad for example will read the newspaper and see reviews and adverts for films, I don't think he has ever used IMDB, nor will he be looking around at film website or YouTube. Yes the internet is great, but many people still use traditional forms of media for learning about things.

I don't assume everyone consumes info the same way I do, I KNOW they CAN do it the same way I do and I also know they would. If someone who likes going to the cinema hasn't seen a film billboard or ad on TV for a while would they:-

A/ Never ever go to a film again.
B/Go online and find out what films are going on.

Or do any of the things I already mentioned above.

It REALLY is that simple and the only people to ever tell you otherwise are.... PR guys.

If I want to know instantly what films are coming up do I go downstairs and watch TV hoping to catch film adverts, to I randomly walk aimlessly around town looking for billboards that might tell me, or do I go on IMDB and get presented instantly with pictures, info, trailers on every film that has any relevance?

if PR people aren't selling you millions in PR... they aren't making money.

Of course it's going to cost a significant amount in PR, but then is Disney really going to use a cheap PR agency? or a couple of guys in their bedroom who can knock up a website for a few quid?

It's no different to many other industries.
A company I recently worked for did a huge rebrand, they spent thousands on the designer who changed the logo. It could have been done for significantly less by somebody else, but you are paying for the designer and their reputation.

Some of the single best "viral" campaigns consist of a poster, or a countdown timer on a website, you're talking about literally a couple grand creating HUGE amounts of interest, and this almost always happens online, in advance of trailers, and so where are people looking for the latest info updates.... online.

You can only assume about the costs involved in 'viral' advertising campaigns, when likely it's got a huge PR company behind it as part of an overall marketing campaign which is costing a considerable amount of money.

There have of course been success from internet marketing, the Blair Witch Project is probably still one of the best examples, but it had no marketing budget and it came at a time before internet and viral marketing was really that big.

It's no good thinking that an online or viral marketing campaign is a no brainer and cheap, because there are so many things on the internet vying for a users attention that you've got to spend money and be clever to even get it to them in the first place.
 
I bolded the bit where you made sweeping generalisation and showed your lack of knowledge on the subject.

PR... working really really hard, to make you think they are really working.

Where did I say put one picture up online? No where, you brought up a picture and passive advertising, and thus billboards being worthwhile and you managed to mention this because I didn't list every single possible type of marketing, the trailer has and always will being the most persuasive tool in getting people to see or not see a movie.

If you create a picture and start popping it all over the internet several things are important, billboards, WORLDWIDE in PHYSICAL locations mean literally thousands upon thousands of billboards which all cost money. One picture on IGN's frontpage(which costs money) will both, cost magnitudes LESS than billboards worldwide...... and can at the same time be seen by the ENTIRE WORLD.

That is why PR is a sham and marketing has been working insanely hard to pretend the internet doesn't exist.

I also very specifically said that not everyone would see an online only campaign... however, the vast majority of people that went to see THIS movie WOULD, and by spending $10's millions more than necessary, would you gain any of that back by the few you missed, very very unlikely.

A huge cost is paying all the advertising firms as you said, because again you have the internet, one website, worldwide availability, the real world, you pay different companies in every country in the world to have the people there see it.

The cost of knocking up a trailer, and putting a picture of the leading guy on a poster, you can pretend that costs the earth, it doesn't.


For any movie I can think of, I've seen adverts dozens of times in the build up to a release, dozens of posters, when, beyond the first one everything else is a waste. PR's job is to GET YOU TO SPEND MONEY ON PR, that is their entire job, unless you spend money on more ad's, they make no money, so their job is telling you relentlessly that more advertising will lead to more revenue.

You can in this day and age get 95% coverage for any film, with a very small number of people working on an internet only campaign then having every cinema/film/current events/thousand of other websites talk about it and relink everything you want linked..... for free.

Advertising is only as pervasive as... firstly, you want it to be , secondly, as much as PR can con you into paying for, and thirdly, not even slightly as effective as PR people tell you it is.

There is no one I've met in the past 20 years who would not hear about the latest film even if they never saw an advert on tv or a billboard, who would also have seen this movie.

You also forget a fairly key factor which PR people won't tell you, if it became NOT standard to put up billboards and pay for expensive TV ad's......... people would actively go and check what films are coming up soon THEMSELVES, and find your incredibly cheap and identically as effective internet campaign anyway.

What was the last film anyone went to see they hadn't seen discussed, mentioned or saw the trailer online? I can't think of one since realistically, not long after the internet "took off". When was the last time I didn't flick to another channel when adverts came on because they suck....... can't remember either.

First off, where did you say put one picture up online? I'm pretty sure "a image" (like you said) is one picture. If you meant something else, that's cool. But if you did mean something else surely you would have used the word "images£? A little point, but that's where I got "one picture" from. Different words for the same thing.

As for "passive" advertising, once again you brought that up yourself.

who is in it and have seen the main poster that will have been used on billboards via "passively" seeing it on the internet.

Now to the point: I didn't mention every type of advertising. Indeed, my post is to highlight how many other things you've missed because that $100m covers loads. As Nexus said, $100m is world wide. So just because you've only seen trailers online for it doesn't mean that the stars haven't popped up doing interviews and promoting the film on Japanese TV or there aren't massive billboards advertising it hanging over the slums in Mumbai or that the director hasn't done a phone interview with the biggest radio station in Belgium. This is what your marketing budget is for.

The internet doesn't reach everyone everywhere and even for those it does, an interview with the director promoting the film posted on an influential website like Empire or something might change someone's mind if they thought the trailer was rubbish. So again I reiterate: it's not about pictures and billboards or internet trailers, it's about every kind of promotion you can think of all over the world.

If we go back to your IGN front page thing, what about those who don't use IGN (like me), or those in other countries who haven't heard of IGN? What about those who live closer to the cinema than they do a telephone exchange and don't have a decent internet connection to check youtube? A PR blitz still requires promotion from the cast and the director of the film. Magazines and newspapers are still useful, setting up test screenings is still gonna come into that budget, putting on a review screenings, billboards as you say, posters in cinemas, TV interviews, radio interviews and not to mention the cost of the star studded media attention grabber, which is the film's premiere...it all adds up. There is not one single film which has been a huge hit cause of the internet alone. $100m will certainly ensure that your film is promoted better than if you just simply post something online and it somehow goes viral. You simply can't get that kind of attention without paying loads of money for it. It's just not possible.

Also, I didn't say people wouldn't go check out films themselves. No idea where you got that from, I didn't even hint at this. I'm aware that people make their own choices, what made you think I wasn't?

Oh and having people repost your link to your site doesn't work as well as you think. As a point of reference, I know many bands who are bloody brilliant and deserve to be huge because they have the right look, the right sound etc. They work tirelessly at promoting their own wares but they've yet to reach a wider audience. If they hired a PR company to do six months work for them, they probably would reach the audience they deserve to reach.

The fact of the matter remains, a PR person knows more people who will pay attention to your product (film, record, whatever) than you do. That's how the game works, that's why it costs money and that's why advertising, marketing and PR are very useful.

I too check out pretty much all the films I want to see online through trailers, interview etc, but that doesn't mean there aren't those who don't. Of which they are millions.
 
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Yet people read newspapers, magazines, watch tv and see previews and reviews in such mediums. My Dad for example will read the newspaper and see reviews and adverts for films, I don't think he has ever used IMDB, nor will he be looking around at film website or YouTube. Yes the internet is great, but many people still use traditional forms of media for learning about things.



Or do any of the things I already mentioned above.



Of course it's going to cost a significant amount in PR, but then is Disney really going to use a cheap PR agency? or a couple of guys in their bedroom who can knock up a website for a few quid?

It's no different to many other industries.
A company I recently worked for did a huge rebrand, they spent thousands on the designer who changed the logo. It could have been done for significantly less by somebody else, but you are paying for the designer and their reputation.



You can only assume about the costs involved in 'viral' advertising campaigns, when likely it's got a huge PR company behind it as part of an overall marketing campaign which is costing a considerable amount of money.

There have of course been success from internet marketing, the Blair Witch Project is probably still one of the best examples, but it had no marketing budget and it came at a time before internet and viral marketing was really that big.

It's no good thinking that an online or viral marketing campaign is a no brainer and cheap, because there are so many things on the internet vying for a users attention that you've got to spend money and be clever to even get it to them in the first place.

Just realised we've said exactly more or less the same thing.
 
This will be an accounting loss rather than a "true" loss... money Disney has basically charged itself and moved around between subsidiaries.
 
Why does this get dumped in a area like this, its about a general conversation not a specific film really.

So goes from being a generally debated topic to one for those who frequent a sub forum most would not go near.

Sometimes the moderation on this site is....

Film threads go in the film forum, which is very popular and is where all other films are dicussed.

Likewise, videogames are discussed in the videogame forum.
 
Good is subjective though.

What you've said clearly suggests that they are not films that you personally enjoy, however the fact that they have been so hugely successful means that they are enjoyed by a large cross section of society... so thus are considered good.

To bring back that logic to this post.
John Carter isn't considered to be a very good film, it's not been very successful.

No, I've not commented on many films in this thread per say, I've just looked to dismiss the idea that all blockbusters are hated on by critics (giving two examples)

I didn't enjoy this film, it was a mess from start to finish and the director has had a stinker. It's also failed to be successful.
 
It's baffling to think that Disney felt that just cause the director had a huge hit with Wall-E that he'd actually be any good at making live action films, so much so that they'd given him complete creative control over every aspect of it.

Well, they're paying for it now. Literally and figuratively.
 
I'd echo some of what Woody__ has said.

$100 million is a lot of money, but you need to remember that this is a big budget popcorn movie and that it's marketing budget is for the entire world on a near simultaneous release.

Just for reference, both Avatar and Transformers 3 had marketing budgets of $150 million.

That budget includes far more than what an earlier poster thinks. It's fees for numerous PR agencies around the world, wages, TV ads, Radio ads, Print ads, Cinema Trailers, Online ads, the Website, Advanced Preview Screenings, Promotional Tie-Ins, Merchandise, Star Guest Appearances etc...

You can't sell an entire film like this on the back of just a YouTube video and some online ads. You need to remember that just because this might be how you see something and consume it, doesn't mean it's the same for everybody else around the world.


I had a few friends and former colleagues working on John Carter, the production ran on for a lot longer than it was supposed to, which is quite telling, as it was likely recut a number of times. I myself had not even heard of the original books before, I don't appear to be the only one, so that hasn't done the film any favours either.

james cameron and george lucas sight them as major influences, as do many sci-fi peeps.

i will admit i never heard of them until about a year ago.
 
Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix account loss of $150m despite a $600m gross... lol.

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