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Labour propose to abolish fee paying schools

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by jsmoke, Nov 23, 2019.

  1. Nasher

    Capodecina

    Joined: Nov 22, 2006

    Posts: 15,748

    They did this in Finland and it actually improved education. When the rich kids had to mix with the riffraff, the rich parents didn't tolerate poor schools and it raised the bar for everyone.
     
  2. cheesyboy

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    Location: Gloucestershire

    Why not bump tax on the wealthy by a significant chunk at the same time as converting private schools?

    £15k+ per year per child of saved school fees would take a lot of tax to swallow up (and I don't mean that the bump in tax should swallow it all, rather I mean that's actually a net financial benefit to these parents)
     
  3. cheesyboy

    Capodecina

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    Exactly this, backing up my point in post #2
     
  4. Rroff

    Man of Honour

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    Finland has a different society to the UK completely as well as different GDP per capita and ability to fund services on a scale the UK can't - lot of stuff works in places like Norway and Finland you can't replicate in other countries.
     
  5. Nasher

    Capodecina

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    But there is no real need for private schools if the state system is good enough. As it should be.
     
  6. SPG

    Soldato

    Joined: Jul 28, 2010

    Posts: 6,009

    Funny i bet if failed in Finland it would evidence number 1.

    Its not as if it would be a quick dismantling of a system desinged to keep the masses down with an odd carrot thrown gor gifted common folk.
     
  7. Rroff

    Man of Honour

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    I dunno about that but as has been pointed out before the relatively small population and high income allows these Scandinavian countries to implement policy that isn't sustainable elsewhere along with cultural differences.
     
  8. andicole0

    Soldato

    Joined: Sep 12, 2005

    Posts: 6,173

    Location: Robertsbridge

    But how will he pay for the extra facilities/teachers etc, oh I suppose by charging those that can afford it. Object defeated.
    Andi.
     
  9. cheesyboy

    Capodecina

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    Government will be pressured to invest more. Does that really need explaining?
     
  10. kindai

    Soldato

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    Location: Bromsgrove

    Nail. Head. /thread.
     
  11. andicole0

    Soldato

    Joined: Sep 12, 2005

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    Location: Robertsbridge

    But where will the investement come from? Pressure to invest hasn't worked for the NHS, Public Transport and the like. Jezzer can't just spend himself out of this mess.
    Andi.
     
  12. cheesyboy

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    I know quite a few who can, and do, afford to send their kids to a local private school and I'm pretty sure exactly none of them would be up for sending their kids abroad, and most could not afford it.
     
  13. cheesyboy

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    Not many rich and powerful folks worried about public transport, son.
     
  14. Nasher

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    And if they do use public transport, it's all arranged and they have security to keep the plebs away. They don't have to squash on to trains or buses like everyone else.
     
  15. Bear

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    Joined: Oct 24, 2002

    Posts: 12,454

    Location: Bucks and Edinburgh

    The problem I have with it is the people that will send their kids to private schools are already paying the lions share of the taxes in the country and after that, you are telling them that they aren’t allowed to spend their own money in educating their kids. Wealthy people will pay for better things if they can and why shouldn’t they. I find it quite perverse that people in general are happy to live off services that other people pay for and then try and demonise those same people because they are wealthy.
     
  16. jimjamuk

    Mobster

    Joined: Nov 30, 2007

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    Location: Bristol, UK

    My girl goes to a private school in London but on the basis of dance ability and not who could afford it. Those that can't afford it get a grant and those who can pay their way so it Mr C ***** any of that up I'm not going to happy with his rosy utopia of mediocrity for all
     
  17. dowie

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 29, 2008

    Posts: 46,042

    This is completely flawed - if you nationalise private schools then that 100k that would otherwise have been spent on school fees doesn't go to the government, it stays in Daddy's bank account and perhaps some of it gets spent on private tutors to top up little Johnny's education at the best state school his rich parents can get him into.

    Your education budget has to increase both because of the initial capital expenditure to acquire the private schools and because you've got more pupils the state needs to cater for and more teachers salaries the state needs to fund.

    Currently the private sector is easing the pressure on state schools/saving money in the education budget as private schools don't take any funding from the state and those kids would otherwise have to be paid for by the state.
     
  18. dowie

    Caporegime

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    Posts: 46,042

    Yup, that doesn't apply to all private schools but certainly the elite ones and boarding schools etc... those lower down the ladder will simply move to where the best state schools are and perhaps pay for private tuition.

    This was something that my uncle noted when looking for schools for his kids - they were not in any position to send them to private school but they were in the position (as lots of middle class people are) to move close to a good comprehensive school - one thing to note re: some of the top comprehensive schools even now without the scrapping of private schools is that plenty of rich parents send their kids there too (this is sometimes a tactical long game as good state school pupils can get slightly better offers at Oxbrigde) and plenty of the kids get private tuition.

    This exacerbates the divide/post code lottery - both rich and more ordinary middle class parents play it tactically in the state sector, house prices do rise in key areas (thus you end up paying a fee of sorts anyway) and the high performing schools become higher performers as pushy parents flock there, private tuition is sought outside of school and grades improve etc...

    You're not going to stop educated middle class parents from giving their kids a head start, making sure they're able to walk/speak etc.. early on as baby/toddlers, playing educational games with them, encouraging early development, giving them educational toys at Christmas and making sure they do their homework, sitting down and helping them when needed etc..etc.. and of course (quite critical at times in terms of boosting grades) paying for tutors to help them smash their GCSEs.

    Not just middle class parents either - any parents very invested in their kids education - for example some asian parents in Birmingham, there is the stereotype of some asian families pushing their kids for a career in medicine or law etc.. and in some cases it is very true (including for a few people I went to school with) - there are various education companies out there promising to help kids smash their exams/get good grades and if you're from such a family/background then get sent to those places over Easter/revision break you'll go through some intense exam prep and smash your A-levels.

    The fact is that there is much more than just going to private school and going to state school - private school is just one symptom of parents pushing for what is best for their kids - you won't take the root cause of that away by scrapping them, you'll just make places at good state sector schools more competitive while destroying some institutions that are currently useful.
     
  19. Brookert

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    Politics of envy, the Labour way.
     
  20. dowie

    Caporegime

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    Posts: 46,042

    IME I've generally not found them to be arrogant or come across with a sense of superiority or at least not one that they openly convey. I've met a handful of old Etonians in my time working in London, while one of them was a super posh JRM type character the rest were more like Cameron or Osborne types (that might be a poor analogy if people immensely dislike either of those two but what I mean is they just came across as confident middle class types).

    The two things that struck me about them were their work ethic (every single one of them was a grafter) and their social skills, these people all had great social skills - they were generally friendly with everyone, I still get random texts/whatsapp messages from a couple of them just checking in or forwarding some meme or mentioning that they're back in the UK for a bit etc.. but their networks are huge... like I mentioned to a mutual friend (Joe Bloggs is back form NYC this week) and he's had the same message trying to schedule a catchup etc.. they regularly keep in touch with a bunch of people, meet up every so often and seem to have friends/acquaintances in every city in the world - if you introduce them to someone then suddenly they're wanting to link up again with them too etc... Like a bunch of mutual friends get added on Facebook after some party etc.. Kind of explains why one of them has a few thousand "friends" on FB to the point where he can post "Hey guys, who do I know in [insert city], will be there Friday night..." and get multiple replies saying "Hey man, long time, we're going to X Friday night, come along..." etc..

    But it is always very friendly etc.. I wouldn't say I'm close friends with any of them, just an acquaintance but they're brilliant at putting you in touch with someone, like you mention in passing you're working on X and of course they know some guy who specialises in some relevant area and you get linked up (how well they actually know that person is another matter but, screw it, they can make the connection).

    Some people pay to go do a posh MBA etc.. in part because of the network it builds up, these guys seem to have have a ready made one from about the age of 18 onwards and they're very good at building on it too...