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Labour propose to abolish fee paying schools

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by jsmoke, Nov 23, 2019.

  1. FoxEye

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 17, 2006

    Posts: 22,743

    Location: Cornwall

    Because we all know the private schools are head and shoulders above the vast majority of state schools.

    If state schools were any good people wouldn't be paying £12-15k a year (or more) to send their kids to private schools.

    The best teachers are going to private schools where class sizes are much smaller, and facilities much better.

    The under-investment in state schools gives us class sizes of 60+, struggling to find half-decent teachers because the wages and conditions in state schools are abysmal. And schools crowd-funding and begging parents for voluntary donations.

    None of this being the fault of private schools. All of this being the fault of austerity-driven cost-cutting and lack of investment by our delightful Tory government.
     
  2. FoxEye

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 17, 2006

    Posts: 22,743

    Location: Cornwall

    I do get the impression that "cultural differences" can be fairly accurately re-worded as "the poor in Britain know their place". That is the history of this country and the established norm. You don't have to go too far back, a couple decades really, to see the class/caste system in this country almost as it has existed for centuries prior.

    We need to shake off this old ultra-capitalist "culture" that we have in this country, which values first personal wealth and personal ambition, and embrace a bit more the spirit of pulling together; vs continuing to enshrine privilege for the few, and keeping the expectations of the workers as low as possible.
     
  3. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 13, 2006

    Posts: 66,983

    I'd agree that the legacy of the class system runs deep but it is more than that when it comes to why these kind of things can work in Scandinavian countries but aren't necessarily transplantable elsewhere - this country especially there seems to be a lot of people (over the whole range) who are only interested in what helps them and helps them in the here and now - no interest in seeing broader society benefit, no interest in what helps the country best in the long run while there seems to be a higher number with at least some kind of social consciousness in places like Norway.

    You need more than just implementing these kind of schemes like in Finland in the UK to make a success of them - you also need that bit that a lot of people in this country aren't interested in of actually investing in them to work.

    Ultimately as well to replicate what works with their relative small population and healthy GDP doesn't just scale up linearly to the population of the likes of the UK - we'd need more like 5x our current GDP to make it possible to invest the kind of money needed.
     
  4. FoxEye

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 17, 2006

    Posts: 22,743

    Location: Cornwall

    I think you're agreeing with me that there is too much a spirit of putting personal ambition and desire for personal gain first in this country. And I'm going to agree with you that it's not just the people at the top, but you can see this desire for personal gain across most tiers of society.

    Perhaps it is a symptom of, once again, our history and class system. A desire not to be the ones on the bottom - as they can be seen to get a very raw deal. A desire to get ahead of the curve, to reach the next income level, to escape the rat race before you burn out. Or to make sure your kids have an easier ride.

    Perhaps it's tied to the very, very unhealthy work/life balance we have in this country, where we don't seem to value anything except working the clock round. And those who don't do a minimum 60 hour weak are lazy good-for-nothings :p

    Perhaps it's the universal lie that's been peddled to us by advertising, that you need a new car on hire-purchase, and you need a new iPhone on a contract, because what else is life for but accumulating expensive tat? You need a goal; that goal is to get bigger or better tat, and for that you need to earn more...

    Perhaps we're just not socially minded in this country for a variety of reasons. As an example, I have lived in this house for decades and I still don't know my neighbours beyond saying "hi" as we pass in the street.

    Maybe we just suck in this country.

    I'm 100% certain that the Fins et al are much better at life and living than we are.
     
  5. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 13, 2006

    Posts: 66,983

    You may have a point - there is so many factors to it when you look at it deeper - but ultimately it does mean that it is much harder for some of these social systems to work in the UK than in the countries like mentioned.
     
  6. FoxEye

    Capodecina

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    Posts: 22,743

    Location: Cornwall

    And maybe they won't work exactly as they do elsewhere to begin with. And maybe that doesn't mean we shouldn't do it anyway.

    Maybe this country needs some force re-adjustment for its long-term good.
     
  7. D.P.

    Caporegime

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 30,675


    But there isn;t a fundamental reason why it wouldn't unless you believe Britons have some kind of genetic difference that would have an impact. The fact i it is just environmental differences, and control of the right wing media, and the selfishness of the elite.

    All it means is we can't turn Briton in to an Scandinavian style social system overnight, but it will take time working away and normalizing expectations in relation to taxes and societal benefits.


    How many times have we read that you can;t tax the rich because they will leave? Complete bogus for so many reasons, and all the more galling coming form someone that wouldn't be affected by proposed tax rises
     
  8. D.P.

    Caporegime

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 30,675


    I don;t think there is anything limiting scale. Level of social support will reflect GDP per capita but Finland and the UK are almost identical ($46K). In fact, economics would dictate it is easier and cheaper at larger scales. I don't know if you have any sources that would show otherwise, but it would go against all standard models of economics.
     
  9. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

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    Location: Plymouth

    It's the sort of equality through mediocrity that is the stock in trade of some circles on the left.

    Basically its irrational hatred driven by jealousy, and a desire to enforce state dependence to increase state control, rather than any form of positive motivation.
     
  10. Brookert

    Mobster

    Joined: Dec 13, 2010

    Posts: 4,091

    I totally agree. The focus should be on improving state schools to better compete, not drag everyone down to lower standards.
     
  11. Thecaferacer

    Hitman

    Joined: Feb 3, 2019

    Posts: 747

    I don't believe this is anything to do with class anymore, or investment and ergo class sizes etc. Loads of fee paying schools are filled with foreign students so no lord snootys

    I've been into quite a few private schools now and the level of support the pupils receive is impressive. The parent's are paying and expect results. The teachers don't put up with any rubbish and the pupils generally realise what is expected of them. I was surprised at just how many teachers were ex-professionals from other disciplines.

    I have more experience of state schools and know several teachers. They are overwhelmingly left wing and don't have any sort of idea of what careers would be like in business, top professions etc. The kids on the whole couldn't be arsed to be there and those that did either had supportive parents or came from a background where they knew what was expected (Nigerian was an example I saw)

    Add to that several kids in the classes were nothing but young criminals, waiting to get out and damage society, made an environment which even the best kids would struggle to excell. Even if you slashed class sizes in half there is a toxic culture in a lot of state schools that needs addressing and won't be solved by getting rid of fee paying ones.
     
  12. RDM

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    That really isn’t the school system I recognise.
     
  13. Thecaferacer

    Hitman

    Joined: Feb 3, 2019

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    So how much tax is too much?

    I'm a top rate tax payer which means that for every £10k over the 46 allowance I pay £4k as direct tax. Add to that I pay significant amounts in VAT due to my lifestyle choices and purchases. I've just finished renovating my house and I've paid £25k in VAT alone. That's without the hidden taxes I've paid like stamp duty etc which was £5k. I also pay a hefty monthly lump to my pension which is taxed at both ends.

    The Exchequer made a fair bit out of me last year and I wouldn't consider myself rich by any standard. I probably offset my sister and her partner who by comparison makes virtually no contribution whatsoever.

    Add to that I don't generally tend to draw benefit and go private for all my own dental work. I don't mind a penny of tax I pay if it produces a society where everything works and there is opportunity for all, but the constant talk of demonising anyone who is remotely a high earner by Labour is seriously ******* off the professionals, wealth creaters and business leaders.
     
  14. Hagar

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Mar 1, 2010

    Posts: 7,775

    Location: Prev. Nkata Cheshire

    How much boarding provision does the state have?

    I ask, because in the 1960's when my father worked in Africa building roads and communications, I went to a private school as a boarder.
     
  15. Sankari

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    Joined: Dec 29, 2007

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    Location: Adelaide, South Australia

    Labour swinging from 'mildly eccentric' to 'please section them before they harm somebody.'
     
  16. D.P.

    Caporegime

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 30,675



    You say that as if you are paying a lot of tax. The fct is, the UK is a very low tax country and you are not paying anywhere near the taxes of comparable European countries, let alone those that we would idelaly likw to copy.

    The UK's Tax to GDP ratio is only 34.4%, which is a long way behind even Greece 39.0%, let alone Germany 44.5%, or France 47.9%. Ideal models would be closer to Finland, 54.2%, or Norway 54.8%.

    The fact is the UK is a low tax heaven already, with decades of government bending over tot the will of the rich and business. In particular, corporate rates are among the lowest in the world.
    Economists have modeled the maximum effective tax rate as around 75% of GDP. The UK is not even paying half the top effective rate.


    You are complaining at a marginal rate of tax 40%, which is about 10-15% other Comparable European countries.

    You complain at 5K of Stamp Duty, while you aren't paying any property taxes, land taxes or wealth taxes. I just paid 77K CHF in stamp duty this summer, and will be paying 18,000 in property taxes per year.

    You are just proofing my point. \ with your rant. No one forces you to have an expensive lifestyle or renovate your house.
     
  17. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 47,689

    Location: Plymouth

    And this isn't due to us not already soaking the wealthy for the vast majority of that tax income.

    An honest discussion about tax is about how we all need to pay more, especially those whos contribution is already disproportionately small.
     
  18. Thecaferacer

    Hitman

    Joined: Feb 3, 2019

    Posts: 747

    And my question was how much is too much tax and from your response it would appear nothing is too much.
     
  19. terley

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 3, 2010

    Posts: 2,722

    Theyd just hire private tutors and have weekend retreats.. stupid decision if you ask me.
     
  20. Bear

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 24, 2002

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    Location: Bucks and Edinburgh

    Actually that isn’t quite true if the BBC are to believed. The UK is low tax for relatively low to average earners but isn’t for high earners https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48988052