Library Day of Action

[RDM]

My point was more 'if you're against imaginary, theorized authoritarianism then why aren't you against the real, existing authoritarianism that we fall victim to every day'

Because despite the real, existing authoritarianism that exists today we are still freer than pretty much any other time in history. Not to mention that whenever anyone tries to implement socialism the authoritarianism is much, much worse than we currently have in this country.

Because we learn from mistakes. We improve ourselves because of them. A world with no mistakes would be a sickeningly dull one. I've explaned why i think the Russian Revolution failed (that and Stalin probably wasn't the best 'head guy' in that situation, Lennin or Trotsky would have stayed truer to the ideology). Also, you can count the number of genuine Socialist revolutions on one hand, probably with less than three fingers.

But you haven't really proven that you have learnt from the mistakes of the past. Every time you get asked for details you do a bit of hand waving and say "It will work out OK." despite every other attempt failing badly and some failing so badly they rank up there as the worlds greatest genocides.

That Cuba is doing so well given it's circumstances is a great sign, especially since 'Socialism' is a transitional phase towards 'Communism', therefore logic dictates that any progress is good progress.

Yeah, Cuba is a great place to live in as long as you toe the party line. (And by great, I mean pretty poor by western standards) Pretty rubbish if you don't though (and by pretty rubbish I mean arrested, jailed and then executed without trial isn't uncommon). But then your definition of fundamental rights doesn't seem to include freedom of expression so I can see why you would like Cuba.

 

[PermaBanned]

Because despite the real, existing authoritarianism that exists today we are still freer than pretty much any other time in history. Not to mention that whenever anyone tries to implement socialism the authoritarianism is much, much worse than we currently have in this country.

We only have the privileges we have in this country because of our exploitation of others. That's how most of the world lives in poverty and unless you want to join them it can't be any other way with the current system.

But you haven't really proven that you have learnt from the mistakes of the past. Every time you get asked for details you do a bit of hand waving and say "It will work out OK." despite every other attempt failing badly and some failing so badly they rank up there as the worlds greatest genocides.

I've never said that. Admittedly i'm not that keyed up on the Russian Revolution but the Socialism i advocate does not involve having any individual or group 'in charge' of the masses.

Yeah, Cuba is a great place to live in as long as you toe the party line. (And by great, I mean pretty poor by western standards) Pretty rubbish if you don't though (and by pretty rubbish I mean arrested, jailed and then executed without trial isn't uncommon). But then your definition of fundamental rights doesn't seem to include freedom of expression so I can see why you would like Cuba.

Poor? It has what could be considered to be the best healthcare service in the world, and is definitely so when you adjust for what Cuba actually is - a 'third world' country with little in the way of monetary wealth and is highly censored and restrained by the US. It has an education system that actually has a semblance of working, in terms of educating people and providing equality.

 

[Dolph]

It's not my argument that was in question here. It's the system. Say what you will about how valid you think it is, or how stupid you think i am, but ultimately the real form of Communism that many people don't begin to understand is the sort of society that people want to live in. It's just a shame they don't think it's possible.

It isn't possible, that's why every attempt to implement it has ended in horrific abusive failure.

You think my system needs authoritarianism to stay in place? What the current system does is use exactly that technique to keep itself there, stopping the masses from overthrowing it by drowning them in sorrow and finances, worrying about how they're going to care for their family rather than what world their family will be born into. It says to people 'well you weren't born into wealth, you don't deserve the same rights' and forces most of the population to undertake tedious manual labor in producing products that, for all intents and purposes, people don't need nor actually want.

As RDM says, we are currently freer than at any time before,and certainly freer than people have been under any attempt to implement socialism.

I would like to see more freedom for people, both socially and fiscally, and your system only tries to fulfill one of those, while being far more authoritarian on the fiscal issue than our current system.

The Russian Revolution is not the only example of any sort of Socialist society (and it definitely wasn't Communist by it's very definition), nor should it prevent it from being used in future. If at once you don't succeed, consign it to the history books and never speak of it again? Is that your reasoning? Cuba has done amazingly well given it's circumstances, but logic dictates that any sort of Socialist society must be or have the potential to be entirely self sufficient, which is pretty impossible for any single, isolated area to be in this world. Until we see a global or large scale revolution, or a collection of soviets able to supply and care for each other, then it's unlikely we'll see real progress. Especially when they're being highly restricted by the US.

Are you really advocating taking the risk? Would you really want to live in an oppressive state like Cuba?

 

[Dolph]

We only have the privileges we have in this country because of our exploitation of others. That's how most of the world lives in poverty and unless you want to join them it can't be any other way with the current system.

But your system doesn't take this away, it actually makes it worse. Your system is designed to exploit everyone without any way out.

I've never said that. Admittedly i'm not that keyed up on the Russian Revolution but the Socialism i advocate does not involve having any individual or group 'in charge' of the masses.

That was the socialism advocated initially in the Russian revolution too...

Poor? It has what could be considered to be the best healthcare service in the world, and is definitely so when you adjust for what Cuba actually is - a 'third world' country with little in the way of monetary wealth and is highly censored and restrained by the US. It has an education system that actually has a semblance of working, in terms of educating people and providing equality.

Now it is clear you are either delusional or deliberately blind to the facts...

 

[RDM]

We only have the privileges we have in this country because of our exploitation of others. That's how most of the world lives in poverty and unless you want to join them it can't be any other way with the current system.

So how exactly are you going to share the finite resources of the world with everyone and not end up joining them too? Let me guess, a bit of hand waving and vague "Well technology will find a way".

I've never said that. Admittedly i'm not that keyed up on the Russian Revolution but the Socialism i advocate does not involve having any individual or group 'in charge' of the masses.

You seem to have a very hard time defining hwat your particular brand of socialism would involve to be honest so all I can go on is the previous iterations, inlcuding the delightful Cuba you so seem to love.

Poor? It has what could be considered to be the best healthcare service in the world,

Since when has 39th in the WHO rankings been "The best healthcare service in the world"? 53rd in the world for life expectancy?

and is definitely so when you adjust for what Cuba actually is - a 'third world' country with little in the way of monetary wealth and is highly censored and restrained by the US. It has an education system that actually has a semblance of working, in terms of educating people and providing equality.

If it is such a wonderful place to live, why do they have such massive problems with people trying to leave?

 

[w1lliam]

I dont know if its been mentioned or not but you can get ebooks from your local library, if you dont want the other kinds.