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London Climate Protests

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by crinkleshoes, 17 Apr 2019.

  1. The Running Man

    Caporegime

    Joined: 18 Oct 2002

    Posts: 36,285

    Location: block 16, cell 12

    But we aren't at risk of famine.

    And we are being squeezed constantly to reduce emissions, cripple our economy and are being told to produce fewer children.

    And we are sending money to the ticking time bombs of population explosion in these countries.

    My question was in the face of this, who is drilling home the message to these countries that having 5 children in countries that already see famine etc is a mega disaster waiting to happen? Whos telling them to stop?

    Do you think that they can handle a doubling of population by 2050?
     
  2. Colonel_Klinck

    Soldato

    Joined: 3 Oct 2007

    Posts: 6,131

    Location: London, UK

    Yep that and as women rise out of poverty they can often get control of their reproductive cycle. There is a good argument that a lot of women are kept in poverty by not being able to control when they have children.
     
  3. Nasher

    Capodecina

    Joined: 22 Nov 2006

    Posts: 21,427

    I think its a big reason they are still in poverty. They get aid for their current population, but then they all have a dozen kids and use up all the new resources. So back to square one, continually.

    Unfortunately you cannot supply common sense.
     
  4. Tefal

    Capo Crimine

    Joined: 30 Jun 2007

    Posts: 67,771

    Location: Wales


    Got a mate who used to run a business out in SA, he always used to day that there was just zero culture of thinking ahead

    Like his day labourers he'd pay daily at the end of the day, because if you paid them for the week or month they'd take it, drink it all that day, then not come back as they needed a new job to get money tomorrow.


    And this was just considered pretty standard.
     
  5. 4K8KW10

    Sgarrista

    Joined: 2 Sep 2017

    Posts: 9,777

  6. The Running Man

    Caporegime

    Joined: 18 Oct 2002

    Posts: 36,285

    Location: block 16, cell 12

    [​IMG]

    Someone go tell China that
     
  7. 413x

    Capodecina

    Joined: 13 Jan 2010

    Posts: 22,976

    Location: Llaneirwg

    Wow.
    Sudan and Nigeria having that (relatively) high birth rate is no issue and incomparable to us.

    You think what the typical forum member from UK here contributes vs someone in sudan.
    -International holidays
    -car
    -plastic production and waste
    -mobile phone changing every few years
    -house, heating, rubbish collection
    -commuting to work in a polluting vehicle
    -meat consumption generating greenhouse gases
    -general consumerism

    Mining, shipping, plastic waste, cheap labour, fossil fuel use, throw away when broken.

    It's absolutely incomparable.
    Having one fewer kids here must equate to 10 kids ( no idea how many) in a place like sudan.



    I wish I could claim I'm not having kids for environmental reasons. It's another influencer in my decision, but it's not the primary factor.
     
  8. 413x

    Capodecina

    Joined: 13 Jan 2010

    Posts: 22,976

    Location: Llaneirwg

    Also. You can't just state 'china' when comparing fossil fuel production.

    They are making crap for us in the west. It's really our fossil fuel use we are just outsourcing it
     
  9. PlacidCasual

    Soldato

    Joined: 13 May 2003

    Posts: 7,294

    PFSC - Plastic S*** From China. We're addicted to buying cheap crap from China and exporting our emissions. It sucks. Last time I looked the halfway point for CO2 manmade emissions was around 1990 if memory serves. This problem won't be solved by the hair shirt approach. We need to adapt and move to nuclear because no other solution will be tolerable to the World's poor who want our lifestyle.
     
  10. The Running Man

    Caporegime

    Joined: 18 Oct 2002

    Posts: 36,285

    Location: block 16, cell 12

    No they are saying that population growth is unsustainable in sudan, and will lead to famine.

    Why don't we head that off and try to work with the people to explain this?
     
  11. 413x

    Capodecina

    Joined: 13 Jan 2010

    Posts: 22,976

    Location: Llaneirwg

    That's how it works over there. It's much more akin to nature. Where population goes through rapid peak and trough cycles.
     
  12. 4K8KW10

    Sgarrista

    Joined: 2 Sep 2017

    Posts: 9,777

  13. The Running Man

    Caporegime

    Joined: 18 Oct 2002

    Posts: 36,285

    Location: block 16, cell 12

    [​IMG]


    Is anyone asking these 100 countries to cut their population growth?

    Seems they can make demands but aren't really helping themselves.
     
  14. StriderX

    Caporegime

    Joined: 18 Mar 2008

    Posts: 28,008

    They literally can't cut their population growth if they don't have the living standards to deal with the consequence of having less people propping up the pyramid.
     
  15. jonneymendoza

    Capodecina

    Joined: 7 Apr 2008

    Posts: 18,581

    They can.

    It's just a poor excuse.

    Climate change need's to be tackled by everyone. Not just the elite countries
     
  16. Tefal

    Capo Crimine

    Joined: 30 Jun 2007

    Posts: 67,771

    Location: Wales


    Who will look after the elderly

    I don’t mean care I mean financially.

    some 40% of our welfare budget goes on pensions but that’s massive compared to their entire tax take
     
  17. 4K8KW10

    Sgarrista

    Joined: 2 Sep 2017

    Posts: 9,777

    Instead of wasting billions to "colonise" Mars which will never happen, we would be wiser to invest these billions in terraforming the Earth.

    Libya is good in that. The Great Man-Made River is considered for a reason the Eighth World Wonder and is the largest engineering structure on the Planet.
    It has the potential to solve the drought problems in North Africa and to make the continent a bit greener, which can have very positive consequences on the world climate, as well.

    Great Man-Made River - Wikipedia
     
    Last edited: 8 Aug 2021
  18. Angilion

    Man of Honour

    Joined: 5 Dec 2003

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    Location: Just to the left of my PC

    That non-renewable resource will run out in a few decades at the current rate of use. So probably sooner as the rate of use will probably increase. Nowhere near long enough to support your first two claims and your third claim is cherry-picking speculative optimism based on nothing.

    Geo-engineering in general is a chancy business because we don't understand the complexities of global climate systems and their interactions anywhere near well enough to do it with confidence. Calling geo-engineering "terraforming" is at best misleading. You can't make Earth Earth-like. Earth is, by definition, Earth-like. So what you're talking about is geo-engineering, i.e. deliberately changing Earth for our own purposes through engineering. We have the power to do so, but we don't have the knowledge to do so safely.

    Kurzgesagt has (unsurprisingly) a good introductory video on the subject. It's aptly entitled "Geoengineering: A Horrible Idea We Might Have To Do".

     
  19. Jokester

    Don

    Joined: 7 Aug 2003

    Posts: 42,179

    Location: Aberdeenshire

    Aye, it opens a can of worms as well.

    It's 2050, we're now carbon neutral or there about, atmospheric CO2 is now at 450-475ppm and the average temperature is now for example 2degC hotter than it was. To address this mass removal of CO2 from the air is commenced.

    Where do we stop, 400ppm? 350ppm? 300ppm?

    Massive political minefield as some countries lose out, some win big.
     
  20. Angilion

    Man of Honour

    Joined: 5 Dec 2003

    Posts: 19,594

    Location: Just to the left of my PC

    That's another important point. I was focusing on the problem of not knowing enough to be able to do it safely from a purely practical point of view limited solely to the engineering, but you're right to say that even if we could do it safely and with full knowledge of all of the effects it would still be a massive problem. If we geoengineer on anything even approaching that kind of scale, the effects will be far from localised.

    There are already examples. The first one that comes to my mind is the dam in Ethiopia. It's excellent for Ethiopia (assuming it's used correctly for Ethiopia, it's adequately maintained and nothing goes badly wrong - dams are always very dangerous). It's appalling for the countries downstream. At best, it will make things worse for them. At worst, it will destroy them. It gives Ethiopia a weapon more powerful than an arsenal of nuclear bombs. It gives Ethiopia a huge power to control those other countries, especially Egypt. It's a political minefield the affected countries have been edging through for years. They're doing it by negotiation and treaty, but that doesn't make the political minefield any less serious. Also, will the treaties be upheld for centuries and remain acceptable to all the countries involved for centuries? How can anyone know that for sure?

    On a bigger scale of geoengineering but still within the realms of something we could definitely potentially do, the first one that comes to my mind is un-desertifying the Sahara. It's possible to turn the Sahara into a fairly fertile region with some very fertile areas in it. Huge plains, lots of grassland, some trees. Like the famous Serengeti area. That would be absolutely marvellous for the countries there. We know it can be that way because we know it used to be that way. We're pretty sure we could deliberately make it that way again. Probably. Sounds like a great idea. But it would destroy the south american rainforests for starters and we don't really have much idea what else it would affect or where. But we can be sure the effects would be massive and global and that at least some of them would be very bad indeed.


    I looked that Ethiopian dam up because I couldn't remember what it was called and that was bugging me. Grand Ethiopian Renaissance Dam. The name isn't hyperbole. It will have a massive effect.