Looking for a Subwoofer + Amp, any help appreciated

[Nemesis379]

Hello all,

I currently have SMSL SA-50 with a Pair of Tannoy MX1 which I love.

Anyway I'm upgrading my TV, and would like to add a subwoofer and upgrade the AMP.

I would like the AMP to connect to TV.

I'm looking at spending max £150 on a subwoofer and £200 on a amp if there's anything worth going above these prices then I'm sure I can be persuaded.

Thanks in advance.

 

[hornetstinger]

Wharfedale diamond sw-150?

 

[lucid]

If your sub budget is fixed at £150 (new) then it's a one horse race; it has to be the Wharfedale SW-150. There's no other viable choice. Simple as that. Hobson's choice.

Where you have a bit of flexibility, and the room isn't massive, then I'd recommend looking at the BK Gemini II @ approx £250 (new). It's better made and has higher-grade components. Room size is a consideration for both, and they'll both start to struggle to pressurise a room with anything much larger than say a 3m x 3m floor area.

Second-hand shouldn't be ignored. There are a lot of BK owners who get bitten by the bass bug and upgrade Gemini II / XLS200 to the XXLS400 or larger. You can play this a couple of ways: a pre-owned Gemini II could be yours for under £100 if you can collect from a local seller. Alternatively, you could get a lot more for your money. The XLS200 is very close to a 1ft cube, same as the Gemini II but with more power and a better driver. It won't do a bigger room or go much deeper, but it will sound richer and tighter. This might tip in under £150 collected. The XXLS400 is far more capable. It has a 12" driver and 250W of potent power on tap. New, they're £460-£540 depending on finish, but again if you can find a local seller and go collect then you could easily snag one for around the £250 mark.

BK isn't the only used brand to look at. There's decent product from Monitor Audio, REL, Focal, selected KEF and Tannoy models, SVS and others. Quite a few of these though will be over your budget.

For your amp to go with the TV, I presume IR remote is a must? You don't want to be getting out of your chair just to change the volume, and, presuming you want something better for sound from the telly than just the headphone jack, then you'll want optical as the audio source which rules out using the TV remote as a volume control.

If I'm honest, I think this is where you'll struggle.

Your amp budget is a lot more than the initial cost of the SMSL SA-50 (£70-ish), so you'd think that there should be plenty of choice; and there is. But most of it is simply repackaging the same kind of small class D / Class T amp in a different box with a few bells and whistles. The problem then is you're paying a chunk of cash just to get an infrared remote function, but the audio quality will move sideways at best or maybe even go down! e.g. the Tibo Ti435 and Tangent Ampster.

Switching from a small Class D/T amp to a traditional-style budget Hi-Fi amp brings its own problems. There's a lot of entry-level stuff from major brands which I'm convinced uses Class D or Class T amplification rather than an all-analogue power amp stage. Take the Sony STR-DH190 for example. It claims to output 2x100W and yet only consume 200W from the wall socket. Sorry, but there's no way any amplification is so efficient that it can operate the pre-amp stages and voltage conversions, all of which generates heat, and do all of that without drawing more from the outlet than it supplies to the speakers. The physics is just impossible. Someone somewhere is lying, or at the very least fudging the figures.

Some of the consumer reviews mention weak bass and limited volume output compared to older all-analogue amplifiers. I think we've got to the point where the cost of manufacturing versus the sales volumes along with stricter energy efficiency requirements are combining to hamstring the designers and they're responding with amps that don't have the balls they claim. For that reason, I would suggest a good second-hand amp with IR remote (Denon PMA355 / Onkyo A-9010 / Yamaha S-500 etc) and if needed add a small optical to analogue stereo RCA converter for a tenner on top. Do this, or buy the IR remote version of the SMSL amp.

Coming back to the subs, both the Wharfedale and the BK subs will work from the speaker outputs of the amp without drawing any power. The connection is made in parallel with the main speaker wires, but the subs have very high impedance - somewhere between 20,000 and 50,000 Ohms - so the amp doesn't see it as a load and the speakers don't react the same way that they would if you tried that with a second pair of 6-8 Ohm speakers. It's all good.

 

[rubberduck]

Room size is a consideration for both, and they'll both start to struggle to pressurise a room with anything much larger than say a 3m x 3m floor area.
of 6

Hi Lucid, a bit OT but just after your opinions.... I have been running a 6.0 setup for a few years and have toyed with the idea of adding a sub for some time but have never commited to it. I am absolutely not a bass centric person but if a sub can improve overall fidelity in addition to a little bit of rumble then I would be happy to go to 6.1.

My room is a converted double garage so around 5x5 m... My budget is very much.in the Gemini 2 region though.... Given that I won't be able to 'pressurise' my room... Is it still worth me considering a sub In this price range?

 

[lucid]

Hi Lucid, a bit OT but just after your opinions.... I have been running a 6.0 setup for a few years and have toyed with the idea of adding a sub for some time but have never commited to it. I am absolutely not a bass centric person but if a sub can improve overall fidelity in addition to a little bit of rumble then I would be happy to go to 6.1.

My room is a converted double garage so around 5x5 m... My budget is very much.in the Gemini 2 region though.... Given that I won't be able to 'pressurise' my room... Is it still worth me considering a sub In this price range?

There are a lot of variables that affect the answer. It starts with the size of your main speakers. Where they're mid-size bookshelf / standmount speakers with say a 5"-6" woofer then a small sub can still add some useful improvements in bass quality and extension. It's obviously a different story though if the mains are some large floorstanders capable of getting down to the mid-20s Hz on their own.

Next is sub position. I could take a small sub such as a Gemini II, put it next to your seating position, play some music, and I think you'd notice a definite improvement in bass quality and extension. In that position though the bigger issue may well be timing integration, and possibly being able to hear the location of the sub depending on the crossover frequency.

The same sub positioned nearer your speakers is going to struggle to generate enough volume without distortion because of the way the sound dissipates over distance.

Where your budget is 'new Gemini II money' and you're open to a used sub then search for an XXLS400, or for something ported (but in a much bigger box) if you want deeper bass and slam for movies.

 

[rubberduck]

There are a lot of variables that affect the answer. It starts with the size of your main speakers. Where they're mid-size bookshelf / standmount speakers with say a 5"-6" woofer then a small sub can still add some useful improvements in bass quality and extension. It's obviously a different story though if the mains are some large floorstanders capable of getting down to the mid-20s Hz on their own.

Next is sub position. I could take a small sub such as a Gemini II, put it next to your seating position, play some music, and I think you'd notice a definite improvement in bass quality and extension. In that position though the bigger issue may well be timing integration, and possibly being able to hear the location of the sub depending on the crossover frequency.

The same sub positioned nearer your speakers is going to struggle to generate enough volume without distortion because of the way the sound dissipates over distance.

Where your budget is 'new Gemini II money' and you're open to a used sub then search for an XXLS400, or for something ported (but in a much bigger box) if you want deeper bass and slam for movies.

Thanks Lucid, I am still running Mission 753 (non freedom) as my fronts which have a 130mm woofer. Somewhat limited in bass response compared to more modern offerings I feel and they do struggle with certain movies although I have nothing to reference them to. I have been convinced enough to look for something 2nd hand to make my budget go further so posted a wanted add on the av forums for an XXLS400. Any other sites worth checking for second hand gear beyond eBay?

 

[lucid]

Shpock and Gumtree, perhaps?

753s like a bit of power to drive them. Bass improves. Room placement - both you and the speakers - is important too. Also check out how well the speakers are sitting on their spikes.

 

[aoaaron]

Go second hand for sure. If you can save another 100 I’m positive you can get close to a bk monolith plus which may be end game for u

 

[hornetstinger]

Monoprice subs are good price, if you can buy one...£550 for 12" thx ported 500w

 

[Nemesis379]

Thanks for all your inputs, esp Lucid, think I'm gonna save up a bit longer, and probably go for used a Denon AV Receiver and BK Sub. Cheers all!

 

[lucid]

Thanks for all your inputs, esp Lucid, think I'm gonna save up a bit longer, and probably go for used a Denon AV Receiver and BK Sub. Cheers all!

Are you sure you want to buy an AV receiver for what is essentially a 2 channel stereo system?

There's a whirlwind of thoughts in my head right now based on your idea of buying a used Denon AV receiver for 2ch stereo replay, but I'll try to condense it all down because the bottom line here is that you could get mauled quite badly.

It used to be a standard reply that 'AV receivers are crap for music'. There's a good reason for that. It's because it was true..... Well, mostly. I'm talking here about Laser Disc / DVD era AV receivers from the late 90s to the mid-2000s. The partial exceptions were the battleship products and the odd midrange AV receiver that no one bothered to try in 2-channel mode because all the peer products under a grand sounded bloody awful in 2-channel mode.

Over the decades this has gradually changed with a sort of drip-down effect, but it's not even across the brands and it hasn't yet reached a point where I could confidently recommend any new £400-£500 AVR as a reasonable tool for music as well as movies. I would also think long and hard before taking the plunge blindly on a new sub-£300 where music is important.

It's said that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The same is true to a degree for sound and ears. What some might consider strident and edgy sound others might perceive as exciting and detailed. Much depends on ones experience, and the partnering equipment, and it has to be said the room too. That's a big factor. It's going to be difficult to make even premium AV receivers and stereo amps sound half decent in a room with a lot of hard reflective surfaces.

Trying to give blanket recommendations by brand is difficult because the musical abilities change based on price and the direction a brand focusses on. For example, older Sony AV receivers wouldn't be high on my list, but the brand has done a lot of work with the introduction of the STR-DN1060, 1070 and 1080 to make a very competitive £450 receiver in what is perhaps the most cutthroat price sector of the market. Yamaha has been one of the more consistent brands making a reasonable job of music, but you should probably look at its products that were over £400 when new if your now buying used.

Onkyo is still struggling to shake off the taint from the poor reliability of its pre-ATMOS era AVRs. Pioneer has been somewhat hit-and-miss with its products as it dabbled with digital power amp stages with mixed results. Marantz is too much money new for the used product prices to have fallen enough to get in to the £200-used category without you going for something really very old.

Denon is the sister brand to Marantz, but where the latter developed a reputation for musical performance, Denon concentrated instead on movie sound. The brand has been busy the last few years trying it seems to corner all segments of the market by offering lots of features and more power (on paper at least*) than its competitors. What I've noticed is the same pattern that Onkyo tried. Denons now run pretty hot. That was an Onkyo trait too, and it lead to failures in the HDMI boards and some of the audio processing circuits as well. Only time will tell, but I worry that owners are resorting to adding USB-powered cooling fans to help prevent their Denon amps from kicking in to protection mode.

Denon's sound signature for its sub-£1000 AVRs has changed and mellowed from what it was. With music, the DVD-era AVRs had a tendency to grab the listener by the lapels and shout in their face. This kind of presentation grates after a while. It's tiring to listen to because the brain needs to work so hard to try to make sense of what it's hearing. Things have improved, but I'd still put Denon lower down my list if music was important.


What's going to give you the best bang for your money?

It would be tempting to think that it would be an all-singing all-dancing AV receiver, but in a stereo or a 2.1 system I would go with a plain stereo amp instead. For a used budget of £200 it will sound better. Looking at a sub such as a BK means you don't need an amp with a dedicated subwoofer output, it will work with any stereo amp.


* take AV receiver power figures with a pinch of salt. This applies to all the main brands.

 

[Nemesis379]

Are you sure you want to buy an AV receiver for what is essentially a 2 channel stereo system?

There's a whirlwind of thoughts in my head right now based on your idea of buying a used Denon AV receiver for 2ch stereo replay, but I'll try to condense it all down because the bottom line here is that you could get mauled quite badly.

It used to be a standard reply that 'AV receivers are crap for music'. There's a good reason for that. It's because it was true..... Well, mostly. I'm talking here about Laser Disc / DVD era AV receivers from the late 90s to the mid-2000s. The partial exceptions were the battleship products and the odd midrange AV receiver that no one bothered to try in 2-channel mode because all the peer products under a grand sounded bloody awful in 2-channel mode.

Over the decades this has gradually changed with a sort of drip-down effect, but it's not even across the brands and it hasn't yet reached a point where I could confidently recommend any new £400-£500 AVR as a reasonable tool for music as well as movies. I would also think long and hard before taking the plunge blindly on a new sub-£300 where music is important.

It's said that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The same is true to a degree for sound and ears. What some might consider strident and edgy sound others might perceive as exciting and detailed. Much depends on ones experience, and the partnering equipment, and it has to be said the room too. That's a big factor. It's going to be difficult to make even premium AV receivers and stereo amps sound half decent in a room with a lot of hard reflective surfaces.

Trying to give blanket recommendations by brand is difficult because the musical abilities change based on price and the direction a brand focusses on. For example, older Sony AV receivers wouldn't be high on my list, but the brand has done a lot of work with the introduction of the STR-DN1060, 1070 and 1080 to make a very competitive £450 receiver in what is perhaps the most cutthroat price sector of the market. Yamaha has been one of the more consistent brands making a reasonable job of music, but you should probably look at its products that were over £400 when new if your now buying used.

Onkyo is still struggling to shake off the taint from the poor reliability of its pre-ATMOS era AVRs. Pioneer has been somewhat hit-and-miss with its products as it dabbled with digital power amp stages with mixed results. Marantz is too much money new for the used product prices to have fallen enough to get in to the £200-used category without you going for something really very old.

Denon is the sister brand to Marantz, but where the latter developed a reputation for musical performance, Denon concentrated instead on movie sound. The brand has been busy the last few years trying it seems to corner all segments of the market by offering lots of features and more power (on paper at least*) than its competitors. What I've noticed is the same pattern that Onkyo tried. Denons now run pretty hot. That was an Onkyo trait too, and it lead to failures in the HDMI boards and some of the audio processing circuits as well. Only time will tell, but I worry that owners are resorting to adding USB-powered cooling fans to help prevent their Denon amps from kicking in to protection mode.

Denon's sound signature for its sub-£1000 AVRs has changed and mellowed from what it was. With music, the DVD-era AVRs had a tendency to grab the listener by the lapels and shout in their face. This kind of presentation grates after a while. It's tiring to listen to because the brain needs to work so hard to try to make sense of what it's hearing. Things have improved, but I'd still put Denon lower down my list if music was important.


What's going to give you the best bang for your money?

It would be tempting to think that it would be an all-singing all-dancing AV receiver, but in a stereo or a 2.1 system I would go with a plain stereo amp instead. For a used budget of £200 it will sound better. Looking at a sub such as a BK means you don't need an amp with a dedicated subwoofer output, it will work with any stereo amp.


* take AV receiver power figures with a pinch of salt. This applies to all the main brands.

Originally I did want to just upgrade the amp but now the more I think of it I'm better off future proofing and saving up. At least for many months and go for something decent like Denon AVC-X3700H AV Amplifier and Q Acoustics 3010i Plus 5.1 Cinema Pack and stick with what I have now.

I eventually wanted to upgrade from a 2.1 setup to 5.1.

Unless you reckon the Denon isn't worth it.

The uses would be:
1. Movies
2. Music
3. Gaming

Thanks again!

 

[lucid]

Originally I did want to just upgrade the amp but now the more I think of it I'm better off future proofing and saving up. At least for many months and go for something decent like Denon AVC-X3700H AV Amplifier and Q Acoustics 3010i Plus 5.1 Cinema Pack and stick with what I have now.

I eventually wanted to upgrade from a 2.1 setup to 5.1.

Unless you reckon the Denon isn't worth it.

The uses would be:
1. Movies
2. Music
3. Gaming

Thanks again!

When you started this thread, everything was about a new or used amp at £200 plus a sub for £150, and the context was a stereo system upgrade to add some ability to connect to a TV. Nothing much changed except a little revised thinking to go for a used sub. Then you threw in that you were thinking about getting a used Denon AVR, but no mention at that point about changing the budget, so of course to any reader it looks like you're saying "I'll spend £200 on a used Denon AVR", and so I made my comments in that context.

To give you some idea, for £200 used, you'd have been looking at something along the lines of an AVR-X2000 or X2200 from about 5-6 years ago. These were around £500 new and they're exactly the sort of amps I was describing that run hot and sound a bit edgy if pushed.

Now you're talking about spending tree times your entire original budget on just an AVR alone (I presume?) - or you are if you want the future-proofing you say you're seeking; so of course that changes things considerably.

With any category of gear there's a minimum you need to spend to get just the basics ticked. Then there's a step-up point where quality and features improve, but it's still a 'value' proposition. This would be the current £500 AVRs from each manufacturer. Aside from extra channels of amplification, once you get above the £500 price point the focus shifts from features more on to stuff that makes a difference to quality. That's what you're looking at with a product such as the AVR-X3700. There are fewer compromises due to price.

It's a lot of amp to throw at a simple 5.1 set up though. You're paying for nine power amps but will only use 5, and whilst the AVR does do bi-amping, drawing all the power from the single transformer inside the amp sort of defeats the object. The real benefits of bi-amping come when there are separate power amps driving the HF and LF speaker inputs independently.

I would suggest stepping down to something like the AVR-X2700 except that you lose Audyssey MultEQ XT32 and a couple of other things too. Check out the pricing though between the outgoing AVR-X3600 and the new AVR-X3700. There's a £250 step. Think forward to this time next year; they'll be an AVR-X3800. That's got to be the time to buy a 3700.


Coming on to the speakers, there's a lot of love here for Q Acoustics, I just wonder though if the 3010i for fronts and the 3090ci for the centre are a bit low rent for a £1000 AVR? If we were talking about an AVR at £300 - £450 then sure, £180 for the front stereo pair and £120 for the centre isn't far off the mark. Personally, I think better speakers up front are warranted. At this level, Monitor Audio Silver wouldn't be out of place, but that's quite a big step up in price. The Q Acoustics Concepts might be more appropriate.

What I'd definitely sidestep though is the Q Acoustics B12 sub.

Sorry, but I just don't see £500 worth of value here when for nearly the same money you could have the far more accomplished BK P12-300 or SVS PB-1000. Both will go deeper, play tight and just knock the B12 in to the weeds.

 

[Nemesis379]

When you started this thread, everything was about a new or used amp at £200 plus a sub for £150, and the context was a stereo system upgrade to add some ability to connect to a TV. Nothing much changed except a little revised thinking to go for a used sub. Then you threw in that you were thinking about getting a used Denon AVR, but no mention at that point about changing the budget, so of course to any reader it looks like you're saying "I'll spend £200 on a used Denon AVR", and so I made my comments in that context.

To give you some idea, for £200 used, you'd have been looking at something along the lines of an AVR-X2000 or X2200 from about 5-6 years ago. These were around £500 new and they're exactly the sort of amps I was describing that run hot and sound a bit edgy if pushed.

Now you're talking about spending tree times your entire original budget on just an AVR alone (I presume?) - or you are if you want the future-proofing you say you're seeking; so of course that changes things considerably.

With any category of gear there's a minimum you need to spend to get just the basics ticked. Then there's a step-up point where quality and features improve, but it's still a 'value' proposition. This would be the current £500 AVRs from each manufacturer. Aside from extra channels of amplification, once you get above the £500 price point the focus shifts from features more on to stuff that makes a difference to quality. That's what you're looking at with a product such as the AVR-X3700. There are fewer compromises due to price.

It's a lot of amp to throw at a simple 5.1 set up though. You're paying for nine power amps but will only use 5, and whilst the AVR does do bi-amping, drawing all the power from the single transformer inside the amp sort of defeats the object. The real benefits of bi-amping come when there are separate power amps driving the HF and LF speaker inputs independently.

I would suggest stepping down to something like the AVR-X2700 except that you lose Audyssey MultEQ XT32 and a couple of other things too. Check out the pricing though between the outgoing AVR-X3600 and the new AVR-X3700. There's a £250 step. Think forward to this time next year; they'll be an AVR-X3800. That's got to be the time to buy a 3700.


Coming on to the speakers, there's a lot of love here for Q Acoustics, I just wonder though if the 3010i for fronts and the 3090ci for the centre are a bit low rent for a £1000 AVR? If we were talking about an AVR at £300 - £450 then sure, £180 for the front stereo pair and £120 for the centre isn't far off the mark. Personally, I think better speakers up front are warranted. At this level, Monitor Audio Silver wouldn't be out of place, but that's quite a big step up in price. The Q Acoustics Concepts might be more appropriate.

What I'd definitely sidestep though is the Q Acoustics B12 sub.

Sorry, but I just don't see £500 worth of value here when for nearly the same money you could have the far more accomplished BK P12-300 or SVS PB-1000. Both will go deeper, play tight and just knock the B12 in to the weeds.

I know, I know I'm sorry for the miss-direction.

Thank you for your input.