Macintosh laptop vs others, why mac?

IMO OS X is actually worse than Windows. Sure installing an app is (generally) quicker. But with OS X while there is a centralised Package Installer (for example Office 2008, iLife, iWork etc. use it), this installer throws stuff EVERYWHERE and there isn't a centralised uninstaller. So on Windows you're left with going into Program Files and Documents & Settings. OS X you have to do a Spotlight search manually telling it do display "System Files".

Never had a problem with any app at all. There's not even a "centralised Package Installer". To install most things you just copy the package into Applications. For more complex stuff, like VMWare, that sets up it's own "hardware" then it has it's own uninstaller in the dmg.
 
If you are definitely running Debian on your potential MacBook Pro purchase, have you researched to see whether there are drivers available for all of the features offered by the MacBook Pro?

Looking at Debian's Wiki page, there seems to be a few potential issues and the page does not seem to cover the unibody MacBook variant much. It doesn't state whether the ambient light sensors for both screen and keyboard as well as trackpad gestures work accordingly to how they work in Mac OS X. Since the Wiki page is quite long, I would imagine there are other small touches offered by the MacBook Pro that could be an issue too in Debian.

In fact, are you actually going to give Mac OS X a try other than using it to help install Debian?

If not, how are you going to update the following components' firmwares if you're going to use Debian solely:

  • EFI
  • Trackpad
  • Keyboard
  • Hard drive
  • Graphics
  • Bluetooth
  • SuperDrive (CD/DVD drive)
The above components have been updated previously and what if you get an iPhone or if you already own one, how to you going to update its firmware, sync its apps as well as backing it up?

Would you rather follow all the instructions on the Debian's Wiki page just to get Debian barely working if I'm not mistaken?

Whilst using Mac OS X, you already have it fully working out of the box without having to spend hours if not days trying to get it to get something to work in Debian (depending on your experience) and potentially still have some left over problems that may not even have a solution for a quite a while!

Mac OS X may have a UNIX foundation but that doesn't mean it makes installing Linux distros easier since again, the MacBook Pro has lots of small touches that are not offered on other laptops. These other laptops are more likely to be supported better by Debian and other Linux distros.

To summarise this post:

If you want an infinite amount of fully working customisations, the MacBook Pro and Mac OS X is definitely not for you.

If you want a fully supported, streamlined and easy experience, the MacBook Pro and Mac OS X is definitely for you.
 
"Teardown" is a good phrase to google, thank you lots for that.

No comment on the installation. I'm fond of aptitude but I've seen it slated for doing terrible things to permissions while installing, and generally subtly breaking things. It seems to work well enough that I don't want to go down the more hardcore routes yet.

I have indeed not researched the driver support under linux. It doesn't surprise me that much that debian (stable) does it badly, but if I end up on ubuntu or elsewhere it's not the end of the world. Failing that it's probably possible to compile the appropriate drivers and build them into the kernel myself, again I'd have to learn how to but I've been meaning to play with recompiling the kernel for ages. It looks foolish even to me, but I'm not worried about that part, and am sort of looking forward to it.

As long as either grub or syslinux can be used to boot osx, Id leave osx on the laptop. For the sake of a few gb it's worth the convenience of having it available for firmware updates and when linux refuses to work for whatever reason.

I don't have an iphone, and completely fail to see the attraction of them. Thanks for the warning on that note though.

A bit inconclusive I'm afraid, keep on changing my mind.
 
Oh really? I have been running windows seven for months now and it hasnt crashed once apart from in a crap buggy game.

I dunno why people get so offended if you say this. It's the truth. :)

Of course your computer isn't going to crash as you are an enthusiast. You know how to run your computer. For me, OS X never crashes, programs may crash but the core OS has never crashed for me. I have been in a brown trouser moment where i didn't save my work once and the computer beach balled, i just left it and it came back to me after a couple minutes. If this was windows it would crash in and instant and that would be that...a hard lock.

I had Vista on my computer and it just crashed all the the time while i was doing nothing except browsing the internet.
 
Never had a problem with any app at all. There's not even a "centralised Package Installer". To install most things you just copy the package into Applications. For more complex stuff, like VMWare, that sets up it's own "hardware" then it has it's own uninstaller in the dmg.

Oh yes there is ;)


screenshot20090913at183.png

As you've said most applications are drag & drop into the Applications folder. But Adobe Flash, iLife, iWork, VMWare, Flip4Mac etc. etc. all use the Installer. To "uninstall" VMWare as you say, it's most likely using a .pkg file that uses Installer to uninstall.

It is all very inconsistant. Please explain how you would remove iLife? If you just drag the apps to the Trash believe me there is a LOT left behind. Equally all your drag & drop apps leaves preferences and the like behind as well.

My point is that on Windows there is central record of all your installed apps (Programs and Features). Yes there are preferences left behind and such but this is more a fault of developers than what is put in place by Windows. On OS X you have dragging apps to the Application folder AND .pkg files which act like .exe files on Windows. And no central place to remove anything. You have dragging to the Trash, using a .pkg uninstaller that may or may not come with the original application or using a fairly specialised Spotlight search to remove all the offending stuff applications leave behind.

Windows is by far better. If it was used right all the time ;)
 
As long as either grub or syslinux can be used to boot osx, Id leave osx on the laptop. For the sake of a few gb it's worth the convenience of having it available for firmware updates and when linux refuses to work for whatever reason.
Syslinux can be used to boot OSX, you need to install it to the EFI partition which can be a little fiddly as it's hidden under OSX. :)
 
...Please explain how you would remove iLife? If you just drag the apps to the Trash believe me there is a LOT left behind. Equally all your drag & drop apps leaves preferences and the like behind as well...

While it's not built into the core OS, there are apps out there which will find all of the related files across your system when you remove an app.

App Zapper is one example. This is paid for but there is a free version which does exactly the same thing.

Even having to use an app like App Zapper, the actual experience/process of uninstalling software is a lot easier/less hassle than under windows.

Panzer
 
Oh yes there is ;)
The Apple installer is no more a package management system than the Windows Installer that handles MSI files. Dragging .app files to the Trash leaves preference files behind, so what? They don't harm performance so why cry about it?

And for the record I've never had Vista, Windows 7, or Mac OS 10.4, 10.5 or 10.6 crash on me. People who do must be doing something wrong.
 
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Oh yes there is ;)


screenshot20090913at183.png

I stand corrected on the technical side of how it works, but by and large as I said most apps are just drag and drop.

Fillado said:
As you've said most applications are drag & drop into the Applications folder. But Adobe Flash, iLife, iWork, VMWare, Flip4Mac etc. etc. all use the Installer. To "uninstall" VMWare as you say, it's most likely using a .pkg file that uses Installer to uninstall.

So use the .pkg file... What's the big deal?

Fillado said:
It is all very inconsistant. Please explain how you would remove iLife? If you just drag the apps to the Trash believe me there is a LOT left behind. Equally all your drag & drop apps leaves preferences and the like behind as well.

To uninstall iLife, for whatever inane reason, you'd use the uninstaller. As for leaving preferences behind, this is generally a very good thing, as it means you can pick up where you left off if you reinstall something.

Fillado said:
My point is that on Windows there is central record of all your installed apps (Programs and Features). Yes there are preferences left behind and such but this is more a fault of developers than what is put in place by Windows. On OS X you have dragging apps to the Application folder AND .pkg files which act like .exe files on Windows. And no central place to remove anything. You have dragging to the Trash, using a .pkg uninstaller that may or may not come with the original application or using a fairly specialised Spotlight search to remove all the offending stuff applications leave behind.

I'm not convinced this Spotlight searching is ever really an issue. Outside of that, I concede that a central listing of apps might be helpful, but this can just as easily be achieved by just looking in the applications folders. Besides, it's not always all roses on Windows either - plenty of apps there are impossible to clear properly, uninstallers don't work, etc.

Fillado said:
Windows is by far better. If it was used right all the time ;)

Your smiley suggests that you are well aware that the reverse is true.
 
To uninstall iLife, for whatever inane reason, you'd use the uninstaller. As for leaving preferences behind, this is generally a very good thing, as it means you can pick up where you left off if you reinstall something.

I suppose I was tricking you slightly as there is no uninstaller for either iLife or iWork.

I beg to differ on the preferences thing (no matter what OS). If you remove Firefox say because it becomes unstable then the only way to fix that is to remove all preferences. Leaving stuff like that behind just asks for trouble.

iLife leaves a lot behind (of course different apps will vary). In the case of Garageband several GB of loops. I use Garageband as an example because it is on all new Macs and most people will have no use for it. The ONLY way to remove these is if you know where they are or you do a system file spotlight search.

Your smiley suggests that you are well aware that the reverse is true.

I was just saying as far as Microsoft are concerned they have done every thing they can. Apple have not and made a fudge of it.

The Apple installer is no more a package management system than the Windows Installer that handles MSI files. Dragging .app files to the Trash leaves preference files behind, so what? They don't harm performance so why cry about it?

I was meaning there is one central place to go in Windows to remove applications. I put in the reference to Installer to explain how Apple have two methods for installation and no true method for uninstallation.

See Garageband example and my reasoning for hating applications leaving preferences behind above. More generally lots of apps that use Installer have package receipt files and other such stuff using disk space.
 
I don't like getting involved with OS wars but I'd much rather have a couple of preference files left after removing an application that will have no effect to the running of an OS than have a bunch of old registry entries and random DLLs being loaded on boot.
 
By the way why do you guys use acer in your arguments? yes they are cheap but both my grannys have them and my freind has one and they all work well. Only companies I have had issues with are HP and low end Sony.
 
Because in my experience Acer make nothing but complete garbage, and their customer service is non-existant.

Unless you consider 6 weeks wait for a laptop to be repaired under their professional warranty, only to be told they don't have the parts and have no idea when they will arrive is acceptable. Acer can take a jump for all I care.
 
I dont see a problem with the actual laptop, fair enough with the customer service part.

A guy I knows shiney aluminium macbooks battery swelled up ripping open his laptop but apple said they wouldnt fix it because the battery had done too many cycles. Hows that for service?
 
I don't like getting involved with OS wars but I'd much rather have a couple of preference files left after removing an application that will have no effect to the running of an OS than have a bunch of old registry entries and random DLLs being loaded on boot.
Why would a DLL load unless it had been specifically referenced by an installed program? The clue is in the words 'dynamic linked library'.

OP I am a UNIX Sysadmin with a Macbook and I run VMWare and there I have a couple of Images, XP, Solaris 10 and CentOS and load them when needed. I certainly could not do without the Windows installation, so much stuff still requires Windows no matter what anyone might try and tell you. My OSX crashes fairly often and there are annoyances like small animated GIFs in people's sigs grinding Safari to a halt. Like any OS it has it's annoyances - I just happen to like using it.
 
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