Man sues Oxford for 'only' getting a 2:1...

[Vonhelmet]

Ah well now you mention fairness, grades depend on how hard the test is from year to year when grade is by score.

Mass grading is unfair however you do it.

Yes, but there are more and less fair ways of doing it.

 

[Hagar]

I always thought that degrees were not just question, answer, tick exercises but more to do with original thinking, demonstration of a wider knowledge and ability to argue or debate a point of view. Maybe I am wrong but the latter would give a lot of scope for grade discrimination IMO.

 

[Vonhelmet]

I always thought that degrees were not just question, answer, tick exercises but more to do with original thinking, demonstration of a wider knowledge and ability to argue or debate a point of view. Maybe I am wrong but the latter would give a lot of scope for grade discrimination IMO.

Not these days. Most people aren’t cut out for original thinking, demonstration of a wider knowledge and ability to argue or debate a point of view, but we’re sending them to university anyway. Courses have got easier on that front, both for the sake of the students, and the sake of those left with the job of marking an increasing quantity of work.

 

[Deleted member 66701]

A target / grade / percentage to reach should be absolute, you shouldn't move the goal posts after you've achieved that target - otherwise it becomes based on purely beating those around you.

Exactly. Every university I've worked with marks via a Rubric. I've not seen any apply a Bell curve to marks.

Not these days. Most people aren’t cut out for original thinking, demonstration of a wider knowledge and ability to argue or debate a point of view, but we’re sending them to university anyway. Courses have got easier on that front, both for the sake of the students, and the sake of those left with the job of marking an increasing quantity of work.

Erm, I don't agree with you there, sorry. Sure, you can scrape by with a pass, Richard or possibly even a Desmond just by demonstrating understanding, but if you aren't capable of analysing, evaluating and creating then you aren't going to get anywhere near a good 2:1 let alone a first. I also don't agree coursea have got easier via the content or marking criteria. I think the teaching has improved though, meaning that grades have got better.

Remember, Universities don't live in isolation, they moderate, by way of external examiners, each others course content and the assessment of students work (for example, a professor from Oxford sits on Lancaster's module board and cross marks work to ensure the standards between the two institutions are broadly comparable). This ensures consistency of standards across the whole University network*.

The External Examiner system enables the University to ensure that the qualifications it awards are of a suitable standard, and that the student performances are judged appropriately.

*Awaiting Moses to come in and argue the toss - don't bother mate, I wont respond as you're on my ignore list.

 

[dowie]

A target / grade / percentage to reach should be absolute, you shouldn't move the goal posts after you've achieved that target - otherwise it becomes based on purely beating those around you.

they generally are, individual module marks can/will be adjusted/scaled by the exam board as the person setting the exam for that module may have set a paper that was slightly harder/easier than previous years but the requirements for a 1st, 2:1 etc.. will remain the same - you'll then maybe have some person who had 69.4% overall across their modules say get awarded a 1st for their degree by the exam board (especially if there were extenuating circumstances involved too) but generally the requirements for a 1st, 2:1 etc.. are already set

I suspect the person talking about bell curve grading isn't giving the full picture/is confused - if he's got a UK university degree then there are external examiners too, the module lecturers can't just dish out grades arbitrarily like that, every module will have an external examiners report

 

[stuman]

How very dare you!

Tell you what let’s have a chat about cowling, flaunching, lining, the implications of defective flashing and the subsequent wind driven rain penetration leading to the efflorescence of hydroscopic salts and the capillary action of moisture causing damp, timber rot, and blown plaster work...... just for fun.

clever words to disguise the real meaning..."choosing non-leaky stuff to build with".

 

[Amp34]

I believe (at least some) medical schools used to mark on a bell curve. That was the case Up until 2010 anyway. If you were in the bottom x of that year then you were cut, even if you were better than everyone in the previous year.

It’s one of the reasons medical school students were/are super competitive. They had to be.

 

[Deleted member 66701]

I suspect the person talking about bell curve grading isn't giving the full picture/is confused - if he's got a UK university degree then there are external examiners too, the module lecturers can't just dish out grades arbitrarily like that, every module will have an external examiners report

Bookmarking this for posterity for when Moses pipes up to say I'm talking ****!

 

[Deleted member 66701]

I believe (at least some) medical schools used to mark on a bell curve. That was the case Up until 2010 anyway. If you were in the bottom x of that year then you were cut, even if you were better than everyone in the previous year.

It’s one of the reasons medical school students were/are super competitive. They had to be.

Yeah, the only instance I've known of this happening historically is on professional degrees where they were massively oversubscribed. It was used to filter out students so that there would be enough placements in yrs 2-4 for the number of students. Teaching degrees used to be like this as well (until about 2007 but since then they haven't had enough students to fill the vacancies).

I'm not aware of it happening at any Uk university currently.

 

[Vonhelmet]

Bookmarking this for posterity for when Moses pipes up to say I'm talking ****!

How have you quoted me saying something I never said? Forum are b0rked.

Ah, it looks like you were disagreeing with me about something else, so maybe you quoted me as saying the other thing you were disagreeing with!

 

[fastwunz]

clever words to disguise the real meaning..."choosing non-leaky stuff to build with".

Now that’s rather narrow mined you cheeky monkey

 

[Deleted member 66701]

How have you quoted me saying something I never said? Forum are b0rked.

Ah, it looks like you were disagreeing with me about something else, so maybe you quoted me as saying the other thing you were disagreeing with!

Edited!

 

[w11tho]

Remember, Universities don't live in isolation, they moderate, by way of external examiners, each others course content and the assessment of students work (for example, a professor from Oxford sits on Lancaster's module board and cross marks work to ensure the standards between the two institutions are broadly comparable). This ensures consistency of standards across the whole University network*.

You've said a very similar thing before. Here's my previous reply from the old thread:

I still stand by my statement that it doesn't vary as much as some think it does, especially when I think of my experience of moderation and validation by quality teams and lecturers visiting from external universities.

Again, this isn't a matter of opinion, it's a matter of verifiable fact. My area is mathematics, so it is very easy to look at course material from different universities and compare. Many universities, even at the top end, miss out on a host of material that is considered standard at others, e.g. Riemann surfaces, Functional Analysis beyond Hilbert spaces (particularly discussion of topological vector spaces), Integrable Systems, Measure Theory, Queuing Theory,... Things like topological spaces are often introduced at the 3rd year, whilst here we do it in the 1st year, to be examined in year 2. Second year fluid dynamics courses at some places cover more than the third year versions at others, and I'm still talking about universities in the top 20 or so. This goes on and on. All this before we've mentioned difficulty of the corresponding exams.

For example, This summer I've worked with Durham lecturers moderating Lancaster assignments, Lancaster lecturers moderating Coventry assignments, Coventry lecturers moderating Cambridge assignments and Cambridge lecturers moderating Durham assignments. There is certainly a concerted effort among universities to equalise academic standards between institutions, one which I think to a large extent actually works.

You completely misunderstand the purpose of external examiners. They are used to make sure universities uphold academic standards, otherwise some universities would get away with murder. They are certainly not used to "equalise standards". I'm speaking as someone who has to write university exams and liaise with external examiners. I offer you some comments from 2016 external examiners, lifted from last year's TEF submission (available here)

- The overall standards exceedingly high – I saw many excellent answers to some very difficult questions on some very advanced material. In my view the standard is significantly higher than any other British University except, possibly, Oxford. (Mathematics)

- The standards of the scripts was high and there was plenty of evidence of outstanding teaching…I would give it as my judgment that the significant gap between the attainment of Cambridge students and those at a Russell Group university with a good history department is as marked as ever. (History)

- this course is a flagship for Physics, not just for Cambridge but for the entire UK. (Physics)

To think that standards are even approximately uniform is naive.

Reading back through the last thread, I see you were awarded a 1st class degree after completing your studies at Blackpool and Flyde College, and so you might think the things I'm pointing out are an attempt to denigrate your achievements. This absolutely isn't the case. As you've rightly said, there is a system in place that makes sure that Universities are only able to hand out degrees if they are of sufficient quality. The point I'm making is there's an awful lot of room for Universities to go way above this lower bound. The external examiner comments in this TEF submission are testament to this fact, to say nothing of the vast differences in course content and examinations.

With regards bell curves. Certainly in my department we have a loose idea of the proportion of people we expect to get 1st/2:1/2:2/3rd etc. See our course schedules, from which I quote:

(Classification Criteria, page 3) The Faculty Board recommends approximate percentages of candidates for each class: 30% firsts; 70– 75% upper seconds and above; 90–95% lower seconds and above; and 5–10% thirds and below.

We take a great deal of care with candidates who fall near any of the borderlines.

 

[Deleted member 66701]

Fair enough and I appreciate your perspective.


One point though, my degree was awarded by Lancaster, not b&fc and each modules learning outcomes are dictated by Lancaster and the marking criteria is against those learning outcomes. My certificate makes no mention of b&fc but is plastered with Lancasters crest. The degree is a Lancaster degree, delivered by b&fc and they have a lot of leeway in how they deliver content (good thing too when considering thier intake). When I applied for a bae graduate scheme, it asked degree title, classification and awarding insituation - I put Lancaster.

However, I'm perfectly aware my degree doesn't hold the same prestige as if I'd have actually attended Lancaster (although I did attend sporadically, mainly fie dissertation research and to use thier excellent library), although the actual study location has never come up as its not displayed on the cert. The statement "I have a first class BSc(Hons) from Lancaster" is true.

I suppose another point of discussion is if a degree delivered by a college is of the same academic standard as that delivered direct by the awarding institution (I'd argue yes).

 

[dowie]

Yeah that would be a truthful answer to put on the application from. I suspect though that if you were to try and conceal the b&fc bit or made it look like you attended Lancaster rather than having a degree awarded by them then hiring managers would take a slightly dim view - I presume on your CV, the 3 year period is listed as attending that college?

 

[Deleted member 66701]

Yeah that would be a truthful answer to put on the application from. I suspect though that if you were to try and conceal the b&fc bit or made it look like you attended Lancaster rather than having a degree awarded by them then hiring managers would take a slightly dim view - I presume on your CV, the 3 year period is listed as attending that college?

It does I'm not trying to hide it, but I'm also not so naive to believe that having a Lancaster degree sounds better* and if no one asks what uni I attended, I don't volunteer it. Copy and paste from CV:-

July 2017 BSc (Hons). First Class. Interactive Media Development

Lancaster University (Blackpool and the Fylde Campus)

*I was on the student panel for FDAP and was one of my arguments why the college might not want to proceed. In the end, it was agreed that they'd shoot for FDAP (which they were successful in) but leave the Hons top up as being awarded by Lancaster.

 

[dowie]

Might be nit picking a bit but you seem to have framed it there as a campus of Lancaster University (is it actually a campus of the university?) rather than say:

Blackpool and the Fylde College (degree awarded by Lancaster University)

I mean you studied at the college and followed their degree program it is just that it is awarded by an external university. Back in the day polytechnics around the country often used to offer the opportunity to study for degrees awarded by the University of London, but you'd be a bit dishonest if there was a polytechnic college in say the village of Crinklybottom and you put BSc(Hons) University of London (Crinklybottom campus).

These days you can still sit University of London exams as an external candidate via their international program, the degrees are administered by various UoL colleges who set the program of study etc.., for example you can get a UoL degree in Economics with the administration of it and academic direction set by the LSE... but it would be rather dishonest to frame it as though you were a student at the LSE rather than self studying a distance learning course set by them.

I dunno, in all probability you might well never have anyone question you about it but (again just IMO) it isn't a good idea to do this sort of thing and you do seem to have a habit of framing stuff in a way that isn't exactly straight up... for example your claim above to have assisted Coventry Lecturers moderating Cambridge assignments? That sounds very dubious - you were studying a vocational course at a local college and supposedly assisting a lecturer moderating assignments at Cambridge? Or was it more that you were assisting the lecturer with something utterly unrelated or with simply admin tasks and he also happened to be moderating assignments?

IIRC you also claimed a year or two ago that you were offered a job as a senior lecturer at Lancaster (despite at the time not having an undergrad degree) - but I wonder if it was more the case of some form of tutor job at this college?

I'm not meaning to have a go, I realise the initial point is rather minor but I have noticed it a few times and just thought it might be worth pointing out as it isn't a good thing to get caught out inflating things in this manner by omitting key details or framing things in a dubious way... the other poster Moses who you have on ignore seems to have you marked as a Walter Mitty as a result.

 

[Deleted member 66701]

You make a valid point, I'll have a think on it. Might drop the Alumni association a message asking their advice on how to correctly word it.

Edit: This suggests:-

Minimum information required

1. The type of degree awarded (such as BSc (undergraduate), MEng or PhD (postgraduate));
2. The subject of the degree (such as Business or Law);
3. The educational institute that awarded the degree (e.g. Cambridge University), and;
4. The start-date and end-date of the degree (e.g. Sept 2007 – June 2010).

So I'll change it to BSc (Hons). Interactive Media Development, Lancaster University, First Class.

 

[dowie]

It isn't the degree wording I was referring to, you've got a degree awarded by Lancaster University, that's fine - you can word it exactly as it appears on your certificate.

It is the omission of your college/presentation of yourself as having attended Lancaster University that would be the slightly dubious bit here if you were attending a local college and following a course they provide. You're presumably going to put some dates on the CV showing when you were in full time education etc..? I think it would be prudent to state where too.

 

[Deleted member 66701]

Ah I see.

Yes it is, it's listed on the time line as studying at Blackpool and the Fylde College 2014 - 2017.

I mean it doesn't even appear that that degree is offered as a program by Lancaster themselves, so it doesn't seem to be the case that you're even studying for say the same set of exams/modules as their students - their role appears to be simply to be the degree awarding institution on behalf of the college who presumably can't award their own degrees or perhaps have taken the decision that continuing to have Lancaster award them is good for marketing the college (and no doubt a nice bit of income for Lancaster).

Yeah - both institutions have said they don't see much point in delivering the same degrees - B&FC's are more vocational (as you'd expect with them being a progression from FdSc) - Lancaster offers a generic Comp. Sci. whereas B&FC are more specific with the software engineering, game development, network security etc. It's worth pointing out that all the modules are written by Lancaster though including specifying the learning outcomes, B&FC have no say in the matter. SO as I said, Lancaster design the degrees (to the same standards as the degrees they offer) and B&FC deliver them.

We can discuss the merits of college vs actual uni, but B&FC is highly rated - both by employers, especially locally (BAE, DWP, IBM etc), and QAA.