Manchester Bombing *** Please remain respectful and refrain from antagonising posts ***

Amp34 said:
I'm sure but I going to be called a 't think a lack of leadership or any particular .
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But how many of those sects are anywhere near as large as catholic or Protestant denominations? Bare in mind the division between Shia and Sunni muslims was derived from political differences in who they believed the successor caliph to the prophet Muhammad should have been which over the years has evolved into some cultural and religious differences but they primarily follow the same teachings in the Quran. Wahhabism and salifism are the more ultra conservative followings which again is based on interpretation.

Someone raised the point about abrogation being clear cut but even that is confused and not quite black and white (http://answering-islam.org/Authors/Farooq_Ibrahim/abrogation.htm has a good summary on it). I've had numerous discussions with my fiancé about the point that there is so much in the way of contradictions and vague references that it's no wonder the likes of Isis and co can twist and manipulate to their will. Most moderate muslims as she told me simply choose to ignore the violent passages as it's not compatible with their way of life which is obviously understandable but the likes of Isis etc simply don't take the same view.

When you have no way of legitimately denouncing these people how can you fight the ideology and convince the brainwashed young terrorists that the cause they think they are fighting for and the belief they'll be rewarded for their crimes isn't actually true? You can't say the pope or the archbishops denouncing acts doesn't have a bigger impact than some imam releasing a fatwa from a mosque in a random location. Isis will simply argue that their interpretation is correct and that's the crux of the issue.
 
Above&Beyond said:
Again you said 'Engaging with the Islamic community, although it has its faults (such as prevent)' which tells me you think prevent is a fault. The link you provided you should read to the end as well to see that Prevent has evolved since a retired policemen left office. Logically you can't claim that the communities are doing enough or can do it themselves if £40 million pound strategies like Prevent are needed.
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No, I think Prevent has its faults - like many others...

And yes I know, which is why I said:

2. I take it you didn't read the links provided? The biggest issue with Prevent is the perception of it due to the issues it has had in the past. Even those running the scheme admit that
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Prevent is a tool, like anything else. All tools have their strengths and weaknesses. Prevent was set up to help communities report those that are a worry. It wasn't/isn't the only tool being used and isn't infallable. Things can always be improved, but by the sounds of it they will never be able to improve enough for your liking.

Using your argument we could argue that most British communities aren't doing enough to prevent crime because we need the police.
 
Arazi said:
This whole subject and many more is about Islamic Terror, anyone on an Islamic Terror list should be detained, simple, this thread isn't about any other terrorist groups, it is about Islamic Terror.

You are just posting your usual defend and deflect tactic like many others on here.
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So answer the question then. Should everyone on all terror watch lists be detained and incarcerated, or just those on Islamic terror lists. If only those on Islamic terror lists then why?

So far all you've done is deflect this question time and time again by using the claim that we can only discuss Islamic terror.

Let's be clear here, you mentioned in the past that it should only be those on Islamic terror watch lists, not others. You then realized your mistake and have since spent the time insisting that we can only discuss islamic terror whenever it's brought up.

You could easily say "yes, I think everyone on an terror watch list should be dealt with equally", but you never do, you deflect again and again and again, while insisting others are the ones deflecting.

It would be much simpler if you just answered the question for once. ;)
 
robfosters said:
The main bit I agreed with was that we should have specialised prisons for extremists.
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It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario again though.

Do you really want to be putting all the extremists in one or two places so they can spend their days chatting to each other, swapping ideologies and methods of murdering "infidels"? The Americans tried that in Iraq. It didn't turn out very well.

Equally it's difficult to want them in the general prison population for obvious reasons.

I'm not sure there's an easy solution to the issue.
 
dowie said:
Why is it unreasonable? He's made a comment just like anyone else on this forum, it isn't unreasonable to criticise especially as the comment he made was ridiculously stupid.
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You are judging him with comments made in the very recent aftermath of one of the worst terrorist atrocities the UK has seen. It's too harsh and unreasonable to be tut-tutting from the moral high ground given the circumstances, not to mention he's a boxer, not a politician or a great orator.
 
Above&Beyond said:
You are judging him with comments made in the very recent aftermath of one of the worst terrorist atrocities the UK has seen. It's too harsh and unreasonable to be tut-tutting from the moral high ground given the circumstances, not to mention he's a boxer, not a politician or a great orator.
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I'm well aware he's a boxer - I don't see why we shouldn't judge him based on his comments? You're not making much sense - most (if not all) of the posters on this forum aren't politicians either.

Fact is he made some ridiculously stupid comments, being a boxer isn't an excuse.
 
Above&Beyond said:
You've already witnessed the consequences of inaction and hesitation by us in Syria. Chemical attacks, kids choking to death, Russia, Hezbollah and Iran filling the power vacuum whilst 11 million are displaced and hundreds of thousands die. All the while stop the war coalition raise placards about the west and go home to a nice cosy bed feeling smug. Inaction has consequences too.

The rationale behind the Iraq and Afghanistan war has been well covered now. We are past that. The issue is what are specific communities doing or not doing well enough to root out these extremists and how can they be helped?
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Sorry but isn't the rise of ISIS, which largely occurred in Iraq post war, as predicted by the stop the war coalition, Corbyn and pretty much every commentator who spoke out against the rational and execution of that war, the majority problem in the current Syrian conflict?

Frankly to blame the people who predicted the outcome of Iraq for the outcome of Iraq is entirely perverse.

P.S. If we're past it, can people also stop going on about Jesus Mohammed etc, it was a long time ago...
 
dowie said:
I'm well aware he's a boxer - I don't see why we shouldn't judge him based on his comments? You're not making much sense - most (if not all) of the posters on this forum aren't politicians either.

Fact is he made some ridiculously stupid comments, being a boxer isn't an excuse.
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If you totally ignore all context of the situation then you'd be correct. He is obviously angry and feeling powerless to do anything and some slack should be cut in these extreme circumstances. To deny that is unreasonable.
 
Trusty said:

Some interesting call in's. Don't agree with all but still good to hear different views.
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Is it "different" and "good" because it's the same old fallacious logic-bereft xenophobia, but, on the Farage show it goes unchallenged?
 
Above&Beyond said:
If you totally ignore all context of the situation then you'd be correct. He is obviously angry and feeling powerless to do anything and some slack should be cut in these extreme circumstances. To deny that is unreasonable.
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Why? I really don't understand your point of view here? What is so different about the context of his comments and those of anyone else? Is it just your low expectations of him because he's a boxer? You're not presenting any reasonable argument as to why he is beyond criticism.

Do you also think that some of the posters on here who have been ranting about deporting or interning people shouldn't be criticised?
 
stewski said:
Sorry but isn't the rise of ISIS, which largely occurred in Iraq post war, as predicted by the stop the war coalition, Corbyn and pretty much every commentator who spoke out against the rational and execution of that war, the majority problem in the current Syrian conflict?

Frankly to blame the people who predicted the outcome of Iraq for the outcome of Iraq is entirely perverse.

P.S. If we're past it, can people also stop going on about Jesus Mohammed etc, it was a long time ago...
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It wasn't just them, there were a lot people against the war, far more than for it.

Transition from autocratic states to democracy can work though, Tunisia springs to mind, although it does seem to be a difficult task.
 
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