Love from Manchester...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...-love-manchester-bomb-destined-islamic-state/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...-love-manchester-bomb-destined-islamic-state/
Manchester Bombing *** Please remain respectful and refrain from antagonising posts ***
- Thread starter omnomnom
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Thing is I don't think the reform is necessarily needed with Islam (as a whole) as such, rather some cultures surrounding it.
I.e. There are some issues with some cultures and communities that follow Islam yes, I wouldn't disagree. There are also issues with the teachings of various denominations of Islam (some more than others, as discussed regularly). But those issues aren't any more fundamental to modern Islam than the issues seen in modern Christianity (for example).
It's just a book essentially, it's the cultures and interpretations surrounding it that can be an issue. Just as the bible is just a book, but reform can be needed with certain teachings of certain denominations (for example the reform of the Catholic Church in recent years regarding abortion and homosexuality).
I think one of the issues with Islam in the west is separating the cultural from the religious doctrine, largely due to the fact a significant proportion/majority of Muslims in the UK grew up in other countries and cultures.
A rational discussion is fine, the problem is when you're dealing with many people whose starting point is "Islam can't exist in western society" it's difficult to have that rational discourse. That's especially true when they don't even begin to consider/entertain all the other factors surrounding the various problems (such as the Mindanao example).
Edit: didn't watch the video sorry, I'm at work.
The sad reality is, there is a negative undercurrent when it comes to Islam.
Let's not forget there are still countries out there that stone people to death over what are - in the civilised world - trivial things/not even crimes at all.
I've seen it suggested that many Muslims will be taught 'selectively' - perhaps leaving out the more severe rules and teachings as they are quite obviously unreasonable/not acceptable. I'm sure this would apply to other religions too.
I'm no expert by any means, but would be interested to hear viewpoints.
Let's not forget there are still countries out there that stone people to death over what are - in the civilised world - trivial things/not even crimes at all.
I've seen it suggested that many Muslims will be taught 'selectively' - perhaps leaving out the more severe rules and teachings as they are quite obviously unreasonable/not acceptable. I'm sure this would apply to other religions too.
I'm no expert by any means, but would be interested to hear viewpoints.
But in this context Islam is essentially the interpretation of that book and associated texts - it comes in different forms but the point is that it (in many cases) needs reform, If you're going to reframe Islam to be something abstract and then talk of the interpretations being at fault then we've simply got an issue of semantics here.
another idiot on TV wanting some super authoritarian solution to the problem like the boxer mentioned previously
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The war in Iraq has been covered in minute detail, the rehashing of it serves no purpose rather than people who want to gloat and say 'I told you so'. As for Stop the War, read this:
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...ghting-for-syrians-russia-assad-a7461316.html
Remember when they even shouted down a Syrian at one of their protests?
Well obviously holding hands, hug a hoody isn't working isn't it?
Also he's former SAS, so not exactly joe blogs
that doesn't logically imply that internment is a good solution, it isn't like we've not tried that one before either
Deleted member 68110
Deleted member 68110
How many have you hugged before reaching that conclusion?
And that SAS bloke is clear about what needs to be done, but not who to.
Are we all agreed it should be to hard right extremists expressing hate and directing violence at those of different religions?
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Segregating them as much as possible is best IMO. Put them in the same prison together and you will definitely only make it worse.
I've read a few posts from you, not sure you are always coherent: I said:
You then say
If what you are trying to say is you didn't need to be a libta** snowfl*** liberal SJW to see Iraq as idiotic, well obviously I agree.
In fact on the eve of Iraq part I Ted Heath went to meet sadddam to attempt to broker a peace deal rather than watch pointless deaths unfold, a fact that reminds me than a number of conservative/right wing leaders (failed or otherwise) have shown more intellect and humanity, than supposed left leaning or incumbent Tories, frankly Heath was of an era where I at least could respectful disagree with an Honourable position,
Leaders with the Courage to avoid mass deaths, bitter disputes, animosity and hatred are to be prized not attacked.
If we want Trump, Le Pen, Cameron, May, Farrage, Bush, Blair we pick them based on fear, just don't expect a rose garden.
How many people are actually suggesting it is working? The problem is we have nothing in the middle of "holding hands" and "lock everyone up and throw away the key" that seems like it's not going to cause other issues.
Besides afaik the SAS are known for being highly efficient warriors not exactly known for being intellectuals or politicians are they?
You seem to have overreacted, i was just adding to the conversation.
You thinking I have not done
Its called justice. If you do not like it suggest you move to Russia or other eastern block country with a lovely chap at the helm.
What you've just described there is the various Christian denominations as well. The separation of Protestantism was a political decision that has created cultural and religious differences. Both it and Catholicism follow the same teachings though.
You can delve deeper and start looking at the Anglican communion. All should follow broadly the same interpretations but various denominations have different interpretations on things like homosexuality for example - generally the African churches are far more negative about it than the CoE, taking a more conservative view on their interpretations. The communion leadership may make an edict but that doesn't mean people will follow it, or that the denominations/people that don't agree won't just split.
Religion is fluid, the pope denouncing something doesn't mean other denominations are going to take any notice any more than some random imam in a mosque somewhere. There are however plenty of very influential imams that have and are essentially creating their own denominations, in which their followers will follow what they say (as much as others follow their own leaders).
The only way to stop extremism is to make it culturally unacceptable. Denomination leaders can only go so far. Its the reason your gf, and most Muslims ignore the violent messages. And that goes back to the point about fluidity.
Yeah, it is pretty Christian following EU law returning economic migrants to the first safe country they arrived to
And how do you know they arrived in those countries? Thats actually the question you originally replied to...
I point out the perversity of You BLAMING the fall out of Iraq on broad groups of people, that were against Iraq.
Your answer, don't mention the clear issue that for all intents and purposes has led to Syria (its been covered in detail), here is an opinion piece about the problems within a UK protest organisation.
I'll put it in perspective, at a fairly conservative estimate, the population of two cities the size of say Southampton died in a conflict between 2003 to 2011 before our troops in Iraq left, obviously unlike our PM we did not leave a "Strong and Stable" country/government and who could have predicted (except virtually everyone against it), the intervention has lead to a growth of western hating fighters in the region. The proposed solution by some, lets regime change the entire Middle East?
At some point having cost so many humans (including children) to depart the planet, who in all likelihood would not have done so otherwise, those suggesting a quickie military intervention to "fix" states in the Middle east should Shut UP!
P.S. should we also deregulate the banks for some innovation timewarp man, or are you ready to accept some responsibility for the outcomes of a failed ideology and plan?
That's probably a debate better suited to another time.
It's not super-authoritarian to deport or imprison people who are actively supporting a hostile foreign power, who have deliberately murdered children in this country. It used to be called common sense.
Is there a fundamental problem with Christianity because of the views and actions of the Westboro baptists? Is there a fundamental problem with Islam because of the views of some Muslims?
There are millions of devout Muslims in the west that integrate just fine and have perfectly acceptable views. There are some that don't, as in any other religion. If the religion is the problem then how are there devout followers of it that have perfectly acceptable views? Are we going to end up going down the ISIS path of them not being "true Muslims" because they don't follow every (even contradictory) word of the Koran?