Mein Kampf passage passes peer review

Caporegime
Joined
18 Oct 2002
Posts
32,618
As a scientist, I find it funny how people outside science talk about Peer Review and Peer Reviewed papers. Peer Review is basically the lowest hurdle that something has to pass. It means, really, very little. What matters is how those ideas are then received, cited, developed, and challenged. Huge amounts of garbage is written, peer reviewed, and published every year. Even most good papers contain some dodgy work; and some of the drekk that gets published in top journals like Science and Nature is astonishing.

There's nothing special about the areas that are targeted by these hoaxers, except that they've deliberately set out to deceive, and stopping deception is really, really not what Peer Review is about. The whole process basically assumes that everyone involved is acting in good faith.

Indeed, it baffles me why people think this is some how shocking while the same thing happens all the time even in the hard sciences. There was a famous case of some physicists who were just copying older articles and were caught out years later, a comp sci paper that was generated artificially. In a more broader context there is a massive repeatability problem in experiments due to the fact that negative findings are viewed poorly and hard to publish so natural selection means that false positives have a higher publication rate, before you get to human nature to be selective with results or twist data.

Peer-review is a minimal part of the scientific process in fact the trend now is to do away with it all together. It serves mostly as the lowest level of proof reading paper. Ensuring there is a good English and logical structure/messages about its most important function, along with a rough analysis of methodology or results to check for glaringly obvious errors.

The Scientific methodology doesn't rely on peer-review, it relies on a process whereby valid scientific findings are repeatedly, verified, hypotheses are developed, supported, reformulated or rejected. Over time, by countless independent scientist, often with conflicting opinions and hypotheses, a more coherence hypothesis with well grounded theoretical and empirical backing develops, and eventually might become an accepted theory .



Some morons set out to purposely deceive in a process that is not designed to protect against deception in a a relatively poor journal. This isn't news. It would only be interesting if it wasn't caught out and some how developed into an academic foundation with thousands of supporting articles and academics.
 
Caporegime
Joined
12 Mar 2004
Posts
29,913
Location
England
The problem here is that most people don't understand either the process or purpose of the peer review process.

Peer review does not involve repeating the study or rerunning the experiments. It also doesn't involve challenging internally consistent conclusions (that's the realm of a counter study).

Credible journals retract or reject papers that are found to be the result of misrepresentation or false interpretation of the data, such as when the Lancet retracted Andrew Wakefield's paper on the MMR vaccine.
 
Soldato
Joined
2 Jan 2005
Posts
8,435
Location
leeds
As a scientist, I find it funny how people outside science talk about Peer Review and Peer Reviewed papers. Peer Review is basically the lowest hurdle that something has to pass. It means, really, very little. What matters is how those ideas are then received, cited, developed, and challenged. Huge amounts of garbage is written, peer reviewed, and published every year. Even most good papers contain some dodgy work; and some of the drekk that gets published in top journals like Science and Nature is astonishing.

There's nothing special about the areas that are targeted by these hoaxers, except that they've deliberately set out to deceive, and stopping deception is really, really not what Peer Review is about. The whole process basically assumes that everyone involved is acting in good faith.

yeah this - i've read an awful lot of papers that are obviously wrong, so they were either sent to a referee that didn't really read it or one that didn't understand it so passed it anyway. It happens all the time - less so in the major journals but still happens.
 
Caporegime
Joined
18 Oct 2002
Posts
32,618
Credible journals retract or reject papers that are found to be the result of misrepresentation or false interpretation of the data, such as when the Lancet retracted Andrew Wakefield's paper on the MMR vaccine.


Any evidence that the journals in question haven't or wont retract the fraudulent papers?
 
Caporegime
Joined
29 Jan 2008
Posts
58,912
Bit of a moot point. That they’d retract them now is based more on the intent of the author rather than the contents of the paper.
 
Caporegime
Joined
18 Oct 2002
Posts
32,618
Bit of a moot point. That they’d retract them now is based more on the intent of the author rather than the contents of the paper.


How do you know? If other academics read the paper, discovered the issues and reported to the journal then the journal most liekly would have retracted the paper.
 
Caporegime
Joined
29 Jan 2008
Posts
58,912
How do you know? If other academics read the paper, discovered the issues and reported to the journal then the journal most liekly would have retracted the paper.

I don't know for sure, what sort of issues were you expecting? Some of these papers were essentially just big opinion pieces/essays. Granted the dog park paper did incorporate an observational study of sorts... :D
 
Soldato
Joined
16 Sep 2018
Posts
12,657
Erm, what?

Philosophy is the root of all science. Without philosophy there would be no science.

Like i said it's not something I would consider sciences, and by you saying it's the root of all science it seems you agree as the basic cause, source, or origin of something doesn't necessarily mean it is that something, the basic cause, source, or origin of you is the chance meeting of some sperm and an egg but you're not either of those things are you?
 
Soldato
Joined
27 Jan 2009
Posts
6,563
Peer-review is a minimal part of the scientific process in fact the trend now is to do away with it all together. It serves mostly as the lowest level of proof reading paper. Ensuring there is a good English and logical structure/messages about its most important function, along with a rough analysis of methodology or results to check for glaringly obvious errors.

D. P you really are the gift that keeps giving, seemingly unable to remain consistent on anything, have you thought about a career in politics?

One moment peer review is little more than a spell checking and grammar exercise (according to you).

And on another occasion you are using peer reviewed humanties papers as if you are hiding behind your mothers petticoats on these same forums .. . . .


You know like when I had this to say to you before ..

Caracus2k said:

When you had been saying the following previously

Academic experts have presented why Islamophobia is a form of racism in peer reviewed journals.

You are the one making the claim that discrimination against the Tories is racism, therefore it is up to you to provide evidence why.

Unfortunately the games up for you and your attempts to rely on clearly biased 'peer reviewed' humanities papers when you can't personally form and /or articulate a coherent argument yourself.... as the whole process of peer review for such papers, as you know seem to accept, is a rather perfunctory function it would seem.
 
Soldato
Joined
6 Mar 2007
Posts
9,737
Location
SW London
D. P you really are the gift that keeps giving, seemingly unable to remain consistent on anything, have you thought about a career in politics?

One moment peer review is little more than a spell checking and grammar exercise (according to you).

And on another occasion you are using peer reviewed humanties papers as if you are hiding behind your mothers petticoats on these same forums .. . . .


You know like when I had this to say to you before ..



When you had been saying the following previously



Unfortunately the games up for you and your attempts to rely on clearly biased 'peer reviewed' humanities papers when you can't personally form and /or articulate a coherent argument yourself.... as the whole process of peer review for such papers, as you know seem to accept, is a rather perfunctory function it would seem.
oh snap
 
Soldato
Joined
18 Oct 2002
Posts
6,752
i don't think you understand what peer review is - it's literally just to wheedle out glaring errors, the content is pretty much irrelevant. I mean you read the sun so i don't know how you can complain about drivel getting published.

B@

So obviously no glaring errors in the quality or validity of the papers submitted then. Peer review is more than "glaring error" eradication.

For an overview: https://www.elsevier.com/en-gb/reviewers/what-is-peer-review

My favourite :
“An Ethnography of Breastaurant Masculinity: Themes of Objectification, Sexual Conquest, Male Control, and Masculine Toughness in a Sexually Objectifying Restaurant?”
ahem...

As a scientist, I find it funny how people outside science talk about Peer Review and Peer Reviewed papers. Peer Review is basically the lowest hurdle that something has to pass. It means, really, very little. What matters is how those ideas are then received, cited, developed, and challenged. Huge amounts of garbage is written, peer reviewed, and published every year. Even most good papers contain some dodgy work; and some of the drekk that gets published in top journals like Science and Nature is astonishing.

There's nothing special about the areas that are targeted by these hoaxers, except that they've deliberately set out to deceive, and stopping deception is really, really not what Peer Review is about. The whole process basically assumes that everyone involved is acting in good faith.

The problem here is that most people don't understand either the process or purpose of the peer review process.

Peer review does not involve repeating the study or rerunning the experiments. It also doesn't involve challenging internally consistent conclusions (that's the realm of a counter study).

B@
 
Caporegime
Joined
18 Oct 2002
Posts
32,618
D. P you really are the gift that keeps giving, seemingly unable to remain consistent on anything, have you thought about a career in politics?

One moment peer review is little more than a spell checking and grammar exercise (according to you).

And on another occasion you are using peer reviewed humanties papers as if you are hiding behind your mothers petticoats on these same forums .. . . .


You know like when I had this to say to you before ..



When you had been saying the following previously



Unfortunately the games up for you and your attempts to rely on clearly biased 'peer reviewed' humanities papers when you can't personally form and /or articulate a coherent argument yourself.... as the whole process of peer review for such papers, as you know seem to accept, is a rather perfunctory function it would seem.


You really have no idea what you are talking about do you?


I have used peer reviewed Journal article to make a point because those articles presented evidence and theory that refuted some random racist on a forum.I take the word of a academic export over a random racist any day of the week.

If you believe those articles had false information then it is up to you to find additional articles or proof that refutes the work of the authors I posted. That is how science works. That is what I posted above.


So go on, please post some evidence where the articles I posted are wrong. Otherwise shut up and stop posting more inane drivel.
 
Caporegime
Joined
18 Oct 2002
Posts
32,618
"Islamophobia is racist" seems more like a subjective opinion than "science" tbh....


Find me an academic article that provides a theoretical or formal framework why Islamophobia is not racist. I have previously presented numerous independent publication that argue the case that Islamophobia is inhenrelty racist. This is how the academic and scientific process works. If the re is a strong academic counter-position then ti will be easy to find articles that I would gladly read.
 
Soldato
Joined
27 Jan 2009
Posts
6,563
You really have no idea what you are talking about do you?


I have used peer reviewed Journal article to make a point because those articles presented evidence and theory that refuted some random racist on a forum.I take the word of a academic export over a random racist any day of the week.

If you believe those articles had false information then it is up to you to find additional articles or proof that refutes the work of the authors I posted. That is how science works. That is what I posted above.


So go on, please post some evidence where the articles I posted are wrong. Otherwise shut up and stop posting more inane drivel.

Alway happy to oblige I have already criticised two papers you previously citted. ..

Like when I showed up one author you citited as being a racist 'dear with people', fake news spreading, Islam groupie who quelle surprise agreed with you that islamophobia was defo racisim for 'reasons'

And another where your citied source had an abstract that just assumed the premise you were claiming it demonstrated and moved on from there
 
Soldato
Joined
25 Jun 2011
Posts
5,468
Location
Yorkshire and proud of it!
D. P you really are the gift that keeps giving, seemingly unable to remain consistent on anything, have you thought about a career in politics?

One moment peer review is little more than a spell checking and grammar exercise (according to you).

And on another occasion you are using peer reviewed humanties papers as if you are hiding behind your mothers petticoats on these same forums .. . . .


You know like when I had this to say to you before ..



When you had been saying the following previously



Unfortunately the games up for you and your attempts to rely on clearly biased 'peer reviewed' humanities papers when you can't personally form and /or articulate a coherent argument yourself.... as the whole process of peer review for such papers, as you know seem to accept, is a rather perfunctory function it would seem.

Heh. :D

I'm unconvinced by people saying peer-review is meaningless. Peer-review has been a founding principle of modern Academia. It IS used routinely to add credibility to research and the reputation of an academic journal is, I thought, in large part to the quality of peer review that it is perceived to bring. Why submit something to one journal rather than another? Because of the breadth and quality of the peers that read it.

And as to saying Science depends on methodology not peer review for it's validity - well yes it does but nobody has argued otherwise. What we're saying is that it depends on peer review for its acceptance. No?
 
Last edited:
Soldato
Joined
25 Jun 2011
Posts
5,468
Location
Yorkshire and proud of it!
Find me an academic article that provides a theoretical or formal framework why Islamophobia is not racist.

I can get you an article that provides that right now.

Is Islamophobia racism?
Author:
h4rm0ny
Abstract: The author finds it is not.
Contents: Islam is not a race nor synonymous with a race. Numerous examples of Islam not being coterminous with any given race exist. Ergo, it cannot be the same thing as racism which is defined as prejudice towards people based on their race. Only by altering the meaning of either racism or Islam away from accepted meanings could Islamophobia be termed racism.

Addendum: The author would also like to draw your attention to their forthcoming study: "Is Islamaphobia a phobia?"

There you go. :)
 
Caporegime
Joined
18 Oct 2002
Posts
32,618
 
Back
Top Bottom