Motherboard - Need advice please

[Tigjaw]

Hi, some of you may have seen my thread in the graphics forum but it was getting slightly off topic (talking about other components) so I thought I should bring my problem over here.

I could do with some advice on a motherboard for a computer that I'm (potentially) building. I use my current computer all the time and while it's a very good setup I've finally given in to the temptation of building a new beautiful baby. I use it mainly for browsing on the net, playing games and work and although my current computer meets most of my needs I feel like being greedy and treating myself to an upgrade (albeit a big upgrade) for something I use so often.

My current computer is as follows:
Here's the specs of my current computer anyway:
eMachines 5240
CPU: Intel® Pentium® 4 515 Prescott (2.93 Ghz)
0.09 micron process
81mm² die
533MHz FSB
16k L1 cache
1MB L2 cache
RAM: 2.5GB DDR RAM - (2x 256 + 2x 1024 - PC3200)
Motherboard: Intel® D915GAGL-G1 "Augsburg"
Hard Drive: 160 GB Western Digital® Caviar® WD1600BB-00HTA0
CD/DVD Drive: Lite-On® SOHW-832S DVD/RW Combo drive
Write:
DVD+R 8x maximum by Z-CLV
DVD-R 8x maximum by Z-CLV
DVD+R9 2.4x maximum by CLV
ReWrite:
DVD+RW 4x by CLV
DVD-RW 4x by CLV
Read 12x maximum by CAV
CD Family :
Write CD-R 40x maximum by P-CAV
ReWrite CD-RW 24x maximum by Z-CLV in UltraSpeed disc
Read 40x maximum by CAV
Buffer Size 2 MB
Access Time DVD Family : 160 ms
CD Family : 160 ms
Support OS Windows 98 / NT 4.0 / ME / 2000 / XP
OS Requirement Pentium III 450 MHz or faster CPU and 128 MB or higher RAM are required
650 MB HDD available capacity; and 5 GB free space for creating a DVD image file
Power Requirement +5V +/-5% and less than 100 mVp-p ripple voltage
+12V +/-5% and less than 200 mVp-p ripple voltage
Sound Device/Card: Integrated Realtek High Definition Audio (5.1)
Graphics Card: 6600GT 128mb

Although my graphics card has stood it's ground and handled some very demanding games the newest games will definately take their toll on my poor unsuspecting 6600GT. So I want to upgrade that first, I've decided on a X1800XT/XTX for about £160. However I don't think my mobo nor my PSU will handle that card.
Next on the list; I have a nice load of RAM and it's very nice but the speed (PC3200) is very obviously holding the mass 2.5GBs of RAM back, when I bought the RAM I could tell a difference but I'm very certain faster RAM will show me exactly what I was looking for when I bought the Crucial Memory. However, my current motherboard only supports RAM up to PC3200, more reason to upgrade. I found some GeIL 2GB PC5300 667Mhz Dual Channel RAM for £130 at Overclockers that looked nice!
And finally; as well as having a nice load of RAM I'd love to have a brand spanking new Processor. Dual Core sounds nifty and I picked out the Intel Pentium 4 940 (PC-113-IN) as the best choice for me but if you disagree I welcome any advice and suggestions on that too, I really don't know much about processors or motherboards. And of course I don't think my motherboard supports said processor.

I need a new motherboard and I'd really appreciate suggestions and opinions on what to and what not to look for.

It's already been suggested to wait to buy a processor until the Core 2 arrives due to the potential drop in price of 'lesser' processors and I should also look for a motherboard that supports Core 2 for the future.

Thanks in advance,
Josh

P.S: Am I allowed to post external links as long as they're not commercial sites? Such as; am I allowed to post the link to the manual of my motherboard etc?

 

[Jokester]

Yeah no probs linking direct to manufacturers websites. Just don't link to anywhere that sells the same sort of things that OcUK sell.

Jokester

 

[Tigjaw]

Thanks Jokester:
My Motherboard

I've been looking at some cheaper motherboards and I came across:
Asus P5B (Socket 775) PCI-Express DDR2 Motherboard (MB-151-AS) on Pre-order for £117.44 Including VAT.
Full Specification

However I'm not sure whether it is OTT for my needs, whether there's features I wont use. There's a lot of specs I don't understand! For all I know there could be several other motherboards that are cheaper at overclockers with less unnecessary features that meet my needs perfectly.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

 

[TREE]

well most motherboards will have a lot of features you dont need, but being that it is a prescot cpu your looking at you want to have overclocking in the picture as the CPU simply is no mighty feat on its own clocks.

Another thing with Intel chipset motherboards is that they dont come cheap if they are good, not unless they are out of date. However you never want to buy an out of date motherboard as you should think of it as your car engine, nice car body but crappy engine = crappy good looking car.

plus if you go for that motherboard or any similar using a 965 or 975x (newer models ones on pre order) then you have the ability to upgrade to conroe when you feel you need and have the spare change.

 

[Tigjaw]

Thanks Tree, I don't want to keep my current processor. I want to replace my:
Intel® Pentium® 4 515 Prescott (2.93 Ghz)
with a
Intel Pentium 4 940 (PC-113-IN)

Is that a good choice?

Replacing my processor was my main reason for changing my motherboard to be honest.

I know that this is a motherboard forum but as we're on the topic, what's so good about conroe compared to for example the best current processor? Will a home user like me benefit from it?

I'd like a motherboard that supports conroe (that's core 2 isn't it?) anyway, even if I don't get one right away.

As I said the Asus P5B (Socket 775) PCI-Express DDR2 Motherboard (MB-151-AS) on Pre-order for £117.44 Including VAT looks pretty good but it still seems expensive, I'm assuming there's features on there that I wont need.

Thanks again.

EDIT: Other possible motherboard choices:

Intel DP965LT 965 (Socket 775) PCI-Express DDR2 Motherboard (MB-011-IN)

Abit AB9 (Socket 775) PCI-Express DDR2 Motherboard (MB-106-AB)

 

[TREE]

the difference between a conroe and a pentium d of all ranges (930,940,950,955,965) in simple terms without numbers is that their performance is far greater.
They use less power saving on the electricity bill, also power supplies will not need to be so heft as a result.
The conroe also runs at a lower temperature (much lower) which means cooling the CPU is easier.

As for the features of the motherbord, you are bound to use the on board sound, RAID most likely not but all motherboards come with this these days, overclocking is highly likly if you want to play recent games such as Oblivion on that planned X1800XT using a pentium D 940 (you wont need to do this however if you go for a conroe) with good frame rates and picture quality.

Another thing you will have to check up on is if your hard disks use SATA connectors or IDE. (IDE is the flat thick greay cable) If your hard disk uses IDE you will need to get a SATA hard disk to use with any Intel 965 chipset.

As for your ram id recommend you get some PC2-6400.

 

[WJA96]

the difference between a Conroe and a pentium d of all ranges (930,940,950,955,965) in simple terms without numbers is that their performance is far greater.

That's not quite true. In terms of processing benchmarks like SuperPi, the Core Duo's will crush the Presler's but the 965 will outperform even an E6800 in some games as it's clock speed is significantly higher and they have same amount of cache.

A stock 930 will outperform an E6300 for games as well. And they cost the same. It is true that when you get up to 950 vs. E6600 then the performance is more even in games.

They use less power saving on the electricity bill, also power supplies will not need to be so heft as a result.

While this is true on paper, in fact you are going to want to overclock a Conroe so you need a big, stable PSU. And as you overclock the power requirement increases exponentially so you still need a big PSU.

The conroe also runs at a lower temperature (much lower) which means cooling the CPU is easier.

I have a 6700ES and a 950 Presler. At stock speeds they both idle at about 37C and at 100% utilization (both cores) they are both maxed out at about 55C. If you had compared it to a Smithfield 805 then that idles at 45C and sits at about 66C under 100% utilization. Both the Presler and Conroe are 65nm, all the previous Pentiums were 90nm or 130nm and they did run much hotter.

The problem with Core Duo isn't cooling the CPU, it's cooling the PWM chipset. As you overclock the PWM has to work incredibly hard and usually this is what gives up first. Do bear in mind that most of the REALLY fast overclocks have been done on ES chips with the multiplier turned down a little. This reduces the burden on the PWM controller.

As for the features of the motherbord, you are bound to use the on board sound, RAID most likely not but all motherboards come with this these days, overclocking is highly likly if you want to play recent games such as Oblivion on that planned X1800XT using a pentium D 940 (you wont need to do this however if you go for a conroe) with good frame rates and picture quality.

Depending on which Conroe you get, you may well find that you need to overclock the Conroe to catch the Presler.

Another thing you will have to check up on is if your hard disks use SATA connectors or IDE. (IDE is the flat thick greay cable) If your hard disk uses IDE you will need to get a SATA hard disk to use with any Intel 965 chipset.

Are there any 965 boards out there that have no PATA connectors at all - I haven't seen one. Even the Intel DP965LT board has 1 PATA connector. I know the base 965 chipset spec doesn't support PATA drives, but the sheer number of PATA optical drives means that the manufacturers have to support them. So as long as you have 1 PATA HDD and 1 PATA optical drive they will work. It's not ideal, but it will work. Both SATA and PATA drives are IDE.

As for your ram id recommend you get some PC2-6400.

The faster the RAM, the better, provided your motherboard supports it natively. Most of the motherboards I have seen require you to set the RAM FSB which you can then opt to fix (automatic divider) or increase with your CPU FSB. If the chipset doesn't support very high speed RAM, you can't start off high enough to exploit it. Whatever RAM you buy, make sure the motherboard supports that speed natively.

 

[TREE]

thanks for the first hand info on the conroe. I was only going by what iv seen on benchmarks and estimating what the lower end Conroes would perform like based on the higher end Conroe's results.

As for temps i read on another forum from someone using a Conroe that the temperatures where lower. I would also have expected that to be true due to the Conroe being based on a mobile processor design...

 

[Tigjaw]

Thanks for all the info people!

I doubt it will be necessary for me to buy a conroe, if Presler are equal in terms of gaming then a Dual Core 940 should do the job fine. Besides, the affordable Conroe's have a much smaller clockspeed than the Presler.

My Hard Drive is SATA I think.

I doubt I'll be overclocking, not until I get to grips a bit more with the technicals of the motherboard specs etc so temperature shouldn't effect me, at least no more than my current computer does (and I've had no temperature problems).

What decides the FSB? The RAM or processor or both? Or do all memory components have an individual FSB? Also, I noticed, as well as the cheapest Conroe having a low clockspeed, it only has a 512FSB...I'm guessing that's the reason why it's so cheap?

Would one of those 3 motherboards I listed and linked to in my previous post meet my requirements and support future upgrades including conroe chips?
All my computer information is in my first post.

Thanks

Josh

 

[WJA96]

The most important thing is DON'T BUY A PROCESSOR UNTIL JULY 25th.

When they launch Core Duo, Intel are cutting the prices of all the Preslers. You'll be able to get a 950 for the price of a 930 if the rumours are to be believed. It certainly won't hurt to wait if you can manage.

As for motherboards I have a demo sample of the Abit AB9 Pro and it's fine. The only additions you get with the pro over the AB9 are the RAID controller and a second gigabit ethernet port. I doubt you'll need those in normal use

I have no reason to think the Intel will be anything but good as well. It might not be the fastest, but it will be stable.

The ASUS is starting to come under fire as apparently it ships with a non-Core Duo BIOS and you need a P4 to upgrade it with. You've got one, so no problem there.

If you look on the OcUK conroe order page there is a link by the E6800 to a review. That shows good benchmarks for the various processors.

 

[Tigjaw]

Thanks again WJA96; glad to hear those motherboard are at least decent; I think I'm going for the Intel because no doubt it will be reliable, it supports conroe (for the future maybe) and contains all the ports I need.

I'll follow your advice with the processors; waiting 2 weeks or so is definately for a decent price drop and if the price drop is generous enough I could even go for the 950 Pentium Dual Core, but I may just keep the saving and get the 940 for a nifty £140.

Tree mentioned I should go for PC2-6400 but I've only just got used to the idea of the different PC speeds, let alone PC2! Sorry for another question; but what's the difference between PC6400 and PC26400? Also, is there a compatability difference between PC2 and PC on motherboards? And last but not least; I noticed that GSkill are the only manufacturer with PC26400 and they have 3 different PC26400 RAMs on sale:
G.Skill 2GB DDR2 NR PC2-6400 (2x1GB) CAS5 Dual Channel Kit (F2-6400PHU2-2GBNR) (MY-014-GS)
G.Skill 2GB DDR2 HZ PC2-6400 (2x1GB) CAS4 Dual Channel Kit (F2-6400PHU2-2GBHZ) (MY-013-GS)
G.Skill 2GB DDR2 ZX PC2-6400 (2x1GB) CAS4 Dual Channel Kit (F2-6400PHU2-2GBZX) (MY-011-GS)

^^ All different prices and the only difference I can see is the latencies. Is it important the get the best-low-latency one available?

Thanks again and sorry for the million questions

 

[WJA96]

PC2 and PC are the same as far as I know. as long as you definitely get DDR2 you'll be fine.

I have to admit I buy Corsair Value DDR2 PC5300 Cas 3.0 as that lets me run 1:1 and it overclocks nicely. It's also quite reasonably priced.

If you're not overclocking and you're getting the Presler, then any of these will be fine. For the extra couple of quid, I'd get at least PC5300 as it gives a little bit of future-proofing.

 

[TREE]

Thanks again WJA96; glad to hear those motherboard are at least decent; I think I'm going for the Intel because no doubt it will be reliable, it supports conroe (for the future maybe) and contains all the ports I need.

I'll follow your advice with the processors; waiting 2 weeks or so is definately for a decent price drop and if the price drop is generous enough I could even go for the 950 Pentium Dual Core, but I may just keep the saving and get the 940 for a nifty £140.

Tree mentioned I should go for PC2-6400 but I've only just got used to the idea of the different PC speeds, let alone PC2! Sorry for another question; but what's the difference between PC6400 and PC26400? Also, is there a compatability difference between PC2 and PC on motherboards? And last but not least; I noticed that GSkill are the only manufacturer with PC26400 and they have 3 different PC26400 RAMs on sale:
G.Skill 2GB DDR2 NR PC2-6400 (2x1GB) CAS5 Dual Channel Kit (F2-6400PHU2-2GBNR) (MY-014-GS)
G.Skill 2GB DDR2 HZ PC2-6400 (2x1GB) CAS4 Dual Channel Kit (F2-6400PHU2-2GBHZ) (MY-013-GS)
G.Skill 2GB DDR2 ZX PC2-6400 (2x1GB) CAS4 Dual Channel Kit (F2-6400PHU2-2GBZX) (MY-011-GS)

^^ All different prices and the only difference I can see is the latencies. Is it important the get the best-low-latency one available?

Thanks again and sorry for the million questions

yup PC2 is what companies use to indicate DDR2, just like the difference in the naming of DDR and DDR2 they add the little 2 for a quick indicator.

PC2 5300 (or PC 5300 however you want to put it) is good value for money depending on the brand you choose. But if your budget allows you go for G-skill PC 6400 HZ or even the PC 5300 HZ.

 

[WJA96]

Have you seen any performance data as to whether it is better to Run 533/1066MHz at 3-3-3-9 or 667/1333 at 4-4-4-12/15?

I understand that the FSB figure is 33% higher, but you can access the RAM 33% faster so do the two even themselves out?

 

[Tigjaw]

Thanks again guys,

I was originally going for the 5300 RAM but the 6400 sounds nifty especially the price of the Gskill PC26400s!

Have you seen any performance data as to whether it is better to Run 533/1066MHz at 3-3-3-9 or 667/1333 at 4-4-4-12/15?

I understand that the FSB figure is 33% higher, but you can access the RAM 33% faster so do the two even themselves out?

Ok so, the lower the latency the faster the FSB but the higher the speed of the RAM the faster the RAM is accessed? Sounds like they even themselves out in a way.

Here's a link I found explaining what latency effects - currently reading

EDIT: G.Skill 2GB DDR2 HZ PC2-6400 (2x1GB) CAS4 Dual Channel Kit (F2-6400PHU2-2GBHZ) (MY-013-GS)
looks like the best choice for me I think.

 

[oceaness]

Theres an on going argument about latency vs. frequency

Easiest way to find out is to run something like SiSoftware's Sandra Lite memory benchmarks both ways, and find out which gives you more bandwidth in Mbps.

Bear in mind that if you use a higher FSB it will increase the clock speed of your processor as well unless you bring the CPU multiplier down.

 

[WJA96]

Bear in mind that if you use a higher FSB it will increase the clock speed of your processor as well unless you bring the CPU multiplier down.

On most modern Intel chipsets you can control the memory speed independently of the CPU speed.

 

[oceaness]

DO you mean via the memory divider, for example selecting 1:2 making the memory twice the speed of the FSB?

FSB = motherboard speed
CPU Mulitplier = FSB x n = CPU frequency
Memory Divider = CPU/n = Memory frequency

 

[WJA96]

No, on Abit and ASUS Intel chipset motherboards and also the NForce 4 chipset, you can set the FSB for the RAM to be, say, 266 and the CPU FSB to be 200. Then you can vary the FSB independently for each. I don't think you can do that on AMD chipset machines. The concept of the divider is rendered obsolete as the memory controller can be accessed independently of the CPU FSB controller.

 

[oceaness]

Ah I see, nifty

Just looking into build a new PC, currently looking at an AM2 3800 X2
Have also been considering a system based on an Intel Pentium 4 805 Dual Core "LGA775 Smithfield" 2.66GHz, cause there so cheap.

Problem is I don't know which one of these motherboards will overclock best

Abit Fatal1ty AN9 32X
Asus M2N32-SLi-DLX nForce 590 SLi
MSI K9N Diamond nForce 590 SLi
Gigabyte GA_M59SLi-S5 nForce 590

And I don't know what moterboard to go for should I choose the Intel CPU