MPs vote that ‘animals can’t feel pain.

[Glaucus]

Ok fair point, thought it was more brexit hysteria.

I do wonder if this has more to do with the recent attempt to stop kosher, halal slaughter under animal welfare laws.

De-regulation and not bringing EU laws over when we exit. Allowing far worse animal rights products to be imported and deregulation of medical testing within UK.

 

[Freakbro]

Blaming this on Brexit is incredibly short sighted, look at the bigger picture, our elected government can now vote on things like this and can also be judged on them. When the next election comes around they can be held accountable rather than all these things just being done by the EU. If you disagree with it then great, vote for a party that promises to change the law at the next election, or if enough pressure get's put on the Tories then they will be forced to change it back. This is us having control of our country.

What an absolute load of nonsense.

This 'hold the governement to account' over every minor piece of legislation you don't agree with is the last of the myths spouted by those who have run out of every other point they were trying to make.

We didn't do it before the referendum, why do you think it'll be any different after the referendum? People vote on major issues at the time of the GE (economy, crime, education), get bribed by last minute tax cuts so the other 5 years worth of crap the Govt has dished up is forgotten or just stick to voting the same way every time, because the other side are worse.

As has been shown many times, the Govt already had the powers it needed to tackle many of the issues people voted in the referendum on, like immigration, but no-one held them to account before over it

 

[Efour]

Blaming this on Brexit is incredibly short sighted, look at the bigger picture, our elected government can now vote on things like this and can also be judged on them. When the next election comes around they can be held accountable rather than all these things just being done by the EU. If you disagree with it then great, vote for a party that promises to change the law at the next election, or if enough pressure get's put on the Tories then they will be forced to change it back. This is us having control of our country.

Ok fair point, thought it was more brexit hysteria.

I do wonder if this has more to do with the recent attempt to stop kosher, halal slaughter under animal welfare laws.

It's not short sighted. I decent people would have just adopted the EU law as it stood as it was a decent thing.

Yes exactly what it's all about. Money and profit.

If they are setting up British law like this then by God you had better turn up to your ballot box next election. It's going to be one of the most important since ww2.
Labour or liberals or possibly even a green coalition of all 3 will be wanting to rewrite the crap that's being negotiated.

 

[Tunney]

Blaming this on Brexit is incredibly short sighted, look at the bigger picture, our elected government can now vote on things like this and can also be judged on them. When the next election comes around they can be held accountable rather than all these things just being done by the EU. If you disagree with it then great, vote for a party that promises to change the law at the next election, or if enough pressure get's put on the Tories then they will be forced to change it back. This is us having control of our country.

It’s difificult to hold parties responsible under the current FPTP system. Yesterday, both the Tories and Labour voted to end the customs union with the EU. Who do I vote for if I disagree with this? A third party with no hope of getting into power?

The UK isn’t going to turn into a democratic uptopia once we withdraw from the EU. We’ve got some serious problems with our democracy - an unelected head of state, an unelected second house and a voting system that results two parties receiving a disproportionate amount of power. There doesn’t appear to be a will to resolve these issues.

 

[opethdisciple]

I wonder what this law will be used to for? What current law prohibits activities that this law will enable?

There must be a reason for this debate, ask yourself why, who gains

Looks at username.

 

[Greebo]

Semantics. It's still nonsense law any which way you look at it.

Why? Sentient animals are not allowed to be used in experiments. The only sentient animals in the uk now are domestic animals as they are covered under the Animal Welfare Act 2006.

It also makes it easier to import meat from other countries that mistreat their animals now.

 

[Tuppy_Glossop]

At least we can retaliate when the lizard shapeshifters come

 

[Greebo]

"During a debate in parliament the Government said animal sentience is covered by the Animal Welfare Act 2006."

They voted that we already have laws covering sentience, not that animals can't feel pain. Good headline though, seems to have had the desired effect.

Except that it isnt true. Animal Welfare Act only covers sentience for domestic animals eg pets. All bets are off for other animals now. There was no need not to transfer this law into UK law. It was afterall, a law pushed by us 20 years and we persuaded the other 19 eu countries to vote it in.

 

[Roar87]

What an absolute load of nonsense.

This 'hold the governement to account' over every minor piece of legislation you don't agree with is the last of the myths spouted by those who have run out of every other point they were trying to make.

We didn't do it before the referendum, why do you think it'll be any different after the referendum? People vote on major issues at the time of the GE (economy, crime, education), get bribed by last minute tax cuts so the other 5 years worth of crap the Govt has dished up is forgotten or just stick to voting the same way every time, because the other side are worse.

As has been shown many times, the Govt already had the powers it needed to tackle many of the issues people voted in the referendum on, like immigration, but no-one held them to account before over it

It only really matters how strongly people feel about a piece of legislation, you can vote on whatever basis you like. The issue of people being bribed by last minute tax cuts and ignoring the last 5 years is an issue with the electorate, not the system. There's also far more that can be done if you disagree with a vote, you can start a petition or arrange a protest, if enough people do that then the government will be under pressure to make changes.

For me this is absolutely how our country should work Democratically, and I say that as someone who disagrees with this piece of legislation, though I'm not sure what the practical outcome of the vote means.

 

[stopper]

Article.



And we trust this lot to make our laws....

No, we just don't have a choice.

 

[h4rm0ny]

Halal is OK though?

Not to my mind. I despise the practice which is unnecessarily cruel and would blatantly contravene animal welfare laws of MPs weren't terrified of offending muslims.

 

[glenimp617]

I see some of our well known forum members are struggling to put two and two together.

Personally, one of the fantastic things about being IN the EU are the laws. Once we are out, say goodbye to some fantastic ones. I'm not 100%, but I think the 2 weeks distance selling act (can't remember its new name) came from the EU.

 

[h4rm0ny]

I wonder what this law will be used to for? What current law prohibits activities that this law will enable?

There must be a reason for this debate, ask yourself why, who gains

Without this law it becomes much easier to roll back other animal welfare laws and anti-hunting laws. If an existing law states that animals are sentient and should not be subject to unnecessary suffering, that's a problem when you want to legalise fox hunting for example.

 

[FrenchTart]

I realise it may be easier said than done but please try to keep this away from being a Brexit thread.

 

[Drizmod]

I'm wondering, and I could be wrong, that this has been rejected because it could potentially be used as a weapon in the future to say ban any animal slaughter? I can see a situation in the future where parliament is discussing banning slaughter of any animals and someone gets up and says "well its the law that animals can feel pain and if we don't ban animal slaughter then we are breaking the law"

 

[Uther]

Naah, it'll be about fox hunting.

 

[h4rm0ny]

I'm wondering, and I could be wrong, that this has been rejected because it could potentially be used as a weapon in the future to say ban any animal slaughter? I can see a situation in the future where parliament is discussing banning slaughter of any animals and someone gets up and says "well its the law that animals can feel pain and if we don't ban animal slaughter then we are breaking the law"

Theoretically it could get that extreme, but the realistic version I would say is that it facillitates the reduction of animal welfare laws and aids the attempted return of fox hunting.

 

[enkoda]

This is the list of MPs that voted against (source = Animal Rights UK):

Adams, Nigel
Afolami, Bim
Afriyie, Adam
Aldous, Peter
Allan, Lucy
Allen, Heidi
Andrew, Stuart
Argar, Edward
Atkins, Victoria
Bacon, Mr Richard
Badenoch, Mrs Kemi
Baker, Mr Steve
Baldwin, Harriett
Barclay, Stephen
Baron, Mr John
Bebb, Guto
Bellingham, Sir Henry
Benyon, rh Richard
Beresford, Sir Paul
Berry, Jake
Blackman, Bob
Blunt, Crispin
Boles, Nick
Bone, Mr Peter
Bottomley, Sir Peter
Bowie, Andrew
Bradley, Ben
Bradley, rh Karen
Brady, Mr Graham
Brereton, Jack
Bridgen, Andrew
Brine, Steve
Brokenshire, rh James
Bruce, Fiona
Buckland, Robert
Burghart, Alex
Burns, Conor
Burt, rh Alistair
Cairns, rh Alun
Cartlidge, James
Cash, Sir William
Caulfield, Maria
Chalk, Alex
Chishti, Rehman
Chope, Mr Christopher
Churchill, Jo
Clark, Colin
Clark, rh Greg
Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth
Clarke, Mr Simon
Cleverly, James
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Coffey, Dr Thérèse
Collins, Damian
Costa, Alberto
Courts, Robert
Cox, Mr Geoffrey
Crabb, rh Stephen
Crouch, Tracey
Davies, Chris
Davies, David T. C.
Davies, Glyn
Davies, Mims
Davies, Philip
Davis, rh Mr David
Dinenage, Caroline
Djanogly, Mr Jonathan
Docherty, Leo
Dodds, rh Nigel
Donaldson, rh Sir Jeffrey M.
Donelan, Michelle
Dorries, Ms Nadine
Double, Steve
Dowden, Oliver
Doyle-Price, Jackie
Drax, Richard
Duddridge, James
Duguid, David
Duncan, rh Sir Alan
Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain
Dunne, Mr Philip
Ellis, Michael
Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias
Eustice, George
Evans, Mr Nigel
Evennett, rh David
Fabricant, Michael
Fernandes, Suella
Field, rh Mark
Ford, Vicky
Foster, Kevin
Fox, rh Dr Liam
Francois, rh Mr Mark
Frazer, Lucy
Freeman, George
Freer, Mike
Fysh, Mr Marcus
Gale, Sir Roger
Garnier, Mark
Gauke, rh Mr David
Ghani, Ms Nusrat
Gibb, rh Nick
Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl
Girvan, Paul
Glen, John
Goldsmith, Zac
Goodwill, Mr Robert
Gove, rh Michael
Graham, Luke
Graham, Richard
Grant, Bill
Grant, Mrs Helen
Gray, James
Grayling, rh Chris
Green, Chris
Green, rh Damian
Greening, rh Justine
Grieve, rh Mr Dominic
Griffiths, Andrew
Gyimah, Mr Sam
Hair, Kirstene
Halfon, rh Robert
Hall, Luke
Hammond, rh Mr Philip
Hammond, Stephen
Hancock, rh Matt
Hands, rh Greg
Harper, rh Mr Mark
Harrington, Richard
Harris, Rebecca
Harrison, Trudy
Hart, Simon
Hayes, rh Mr John
Heald, rh Sir Oliver
Heappey, James
Heaton-Harris, Chris
Heaton-Jones, Peter
Henderson, Gordon
Hinds, Damian
Hoare, Simon
Hollingbery, George
Hollinrake, Kevin
Hollobone, Mr Philip
Holloway, Adam
Howell, John
Huddleston, Nigel
Hughes, Eddie
Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy
Hurd, Mr Nick
Jack, Mr Alister
James, Margot
Javid, rh Sajid
Jayawardena, Mr Ranil
Jenkin, Mr Bernard
Jenrick, Robert
Johnson, rh Boris
Johnson, Dr Caroline
Johnson, Gareth
Johnson, Joseph
Jones, Andrew
Jones, rh Mr David
Jones, Mr Marcus
Kawczynski, Daniel
Keegan, Gillian
Kennedy, Seema
Kerr, Stephen
Knight, rh Sir Greg
Knight, Julian
Kwarteng, Kwasi
Lamont, John
Lancaster, Mark
Latham, Mrs Pauline
Leadsom, rh Andrea
Lee, Dr Phillip
Lefroy, Jeremy
Leigh, Sir Edward
Letwin, rh Sir Oliver
Lewer, Andrew
Lewis, rh Brandon
Lewis, rh Dr Julian
Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian
Lidington, rh Mr David
Little Pengelly, Emma
Lopez, Julia
Lopresti, Jack
Lord, Mr Jonathan
Loughton, Tim
Mackinlay, Craig
Maclean, Rachel
Main, Mrs Anne
Mak, Alan
Malthouse, Kit
Mann, Scott
Masterton, Paul
Maynard, Paul
McLoughlin, rh Sir Patrick
McPartland, Stephen
McVey, rh Ms Esther
Menzies, Mark
Mercer, Johnny
Merriman, Huw
Metcalfe, Stephen
Miller, rh Mrs Maria
Milling, Amanda
Mills, Nigel
Milton, rh Anne
Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew
Moore, Damien
Mordaunt, Penny
Morgan, rh Nicky
Morris, Anne Marie
Morris, David
Morris, James
Morton, Wendy
Mundell, rh David
Murray, Mrs Sheryll
Murrison, Dr Andrew
Neill, Robert
Newton, Sarah
Nokes, Caroline
Norman, Jesse
O'Brien, Neil
Offord, Dr Matthew
Opperman, Guy
Paisley, Ian
Parish, Neil
Patel, rh Priti
Paterson, rh Mr Owen
Pawsey, Mark
Penning, rh Sir Mike
Penrose, John
Percy, Andrew
Perry, Claire
Philp, Chris
Pincher, Christopher
Pow, Rebecca
Prentis, Victoria
Prisk, Mr Mark
Pritchard, Mark
Pursglove, Tom
Quin, Jeremy
Quince, Will
Raab, Dominic
Redwood, rh John
Rees-Mogg, Mr Jacob
Robertson, Mr Laurence
Robinson, Gavin
Robinson, Mary
Rosindell, Andrew
Ross, Douglas
Rowley, Lee
Rudd, rh Amber
Rutley, David
Sandbach, Antoinette
Scully, Paul
Seely, Mr Bob
Selous, Andrew
Shannon, Jim
Shapps, rh Grant
Sharma, Alok
Shelbrooke, Alec
Simpson, David
Simpson, rh Mr Keith
Skidmore, Chris
Smith, Chloe
Smith, Henry
Smith, rh Julian
Smith, Royston
Soames, rh Sir Nicholas
Soubry, rh Anna
Spelman, rh Dame Caroline
Spencer, Mark
Stephenson, Andrew
Stevenson, John
Stewart, Bob
Stewart, Iain
Stewart, Rory
Stride, rh Mel
Stuart, Graham
Sturdy, Julian
Sunak, Rishi
Swayne, rh Sir Desmond
Swire, rh Sir Hugo
Syms, Sir Robert
Thomas, Derek
Thomson, Ross
Throup, Maggie
Tolhurst, Kelly
Tomlinson, Justin
Tomlinson, Michael
Tracey, Craig
Tredinnick, David
Trevelyan, Mrs Anne-Marie
Truss, rh Elizabeth
Tugendhat, Tom
Vaizey, rh Mr Edward
Vara, Mr Shailesh
Vickers, Martin
Villiers, rh Theresa
Walker, Mr Charles
Walker, Mr Robin
Wallace, rh Mr Ben
Warburton, David
Warman, Matt
Watling, Giles
Whately, Helen
Whittingdale, rh Mr John
Williamson, rh Gavin
Wilson, Sammy
Wood, Mike
Wragg, Mr William
Wright, rh Jeremy
Zahawi, Nadhim

 

[Greebo]

Here is the wording of NC 30: "In formulating and implementing the Union's agriculture, fisheries, transport, internal market, research and technological development and space policies, the Union and the Member States shall, since animals are sentient beings, pay full regard to the welfare requirements of animals, while respecting the legislative or administrative provisions and customs of the Member States relating in particular to religious rites, cultural traditions and regional heritage."

In other words, when implementing policy relating to animals, policymakers must take into account that animals are sentient. Now that clause has gone and isn't cover by the ANimal Welfare Act 2006 (it doesnt mention sentient and only applies to domestic animals anyway) it means fox hunting can be made legal again plus no laws against making wild animals suffer anymore. Plus makes it much easier to lower farm animal welfare for when we sign a deal with the US.

 

[Trusty]

How is it not covered by the Animal Welfare Act? I thought the act covered every animal with a vertebrate