My new movie setup, what sub/4k player

Associate
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27 Feb 2013
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Hi I narrowed what I need and just to know if its ok and what sub to go with it.

Heres the list for a 5.1 setup:

KEF-Q150-BLK 2 frount, 2 back £798.00

A/V=YAMA-RXV485-BLK.
£349.00

Sub not sure

4k player? Not sure


Got a pan TX 55 4k TV

I love the kef i have on my hi fi so fixated on these for this setup. I only really want to spend around £1600-2000

http://imgur.com/EiJ0ijr
The image is the setup that I wanted. The round thing is a been bag and tv is wall mounted.
 
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Man of Honour
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You're missing a centre speaker if you want true 5.1 Is that an oversight, or do you plan to run the the front pair in phantom centre mode from the amp?

For a sub, the go-to brand for outright performance/value is probably BK. If it fits with your budget, then the XXLS400 is available from £450 to £530 subject to finish. This is a sealed enclosure sub which means a little less very deep bass (it still gets down to 20Hz) but faster response and easier to position which might be a factor in a relatively small room.

The other BK choice is the Monolith, available from £470. This is a ported sub. It goes deeper and louder. Whether you need that in this room could be debated. However, if you're likely to move sometime within the next 3-5 years then living with the ported sub now could be a good move in the longer term.

Both subs use 12" drivers. With BK you're buying direct from the manufacturer, and so what you would have given the dealer in margin is ploughed in to the product to make better performing subs. For example, instead of using Class D switch-mode amplification, both the above subs use the same kind of toroidal transformer design that you'd find in British audiophile stereo amps such as Creek, Roksan, Naim etc. There are also some lovely real wood finish options and the range has very attractive pricing.

SVS will get a mention too no doubt. This is a US brand that carved a reputation for very large subs beloved of the American market. I have to say, the 16" stuff is brutally impressive. Then again, the ported version is £3000 so it should be.

The company offers two 12" entry-level subs: The SB-1000 and PB-1000. S stands for sealed and P for Ported. Both are priced at around the £500 in the basic black wood-effect finish, or there are piano gloss white or black options at £630. You can buy through retailers up and down the country.


For players, the big question is which machines support HDR10+ and DolbyVision. That's been a bit of a problem until recently. Manufacturers have been in one camp or the other, but fortunately that's changing. Although not my favourite brand, if I was buying today then I'd throw £180 at the Sony UBPX700; it does DV and HDR10+, but there is a big caveat. Don't expect it to be slick or any good at streaming.

If our collective experience with smart TV and streaming is anything to go by, hardware manufacturers have shown themselves to be bloody useless at making something that is flexible and will keep working. The same is true of streaming features built in to BD and UHD players. Look elsewhere for your streaming solution. It could be an Android device, or nVidia Shield or a Firestick etc etc. Chances are they'll play more stuff and keep playing as new updates are rolled out.
 
Associate
OP
Joined
27 Feb 2013
Posts
54
You're missing a centre speaker if you want true 5.1 Is that an oversight, or do you plan to run the the front pair in phantom centre mode from the amp?

For a sub, the go-to brand for outright performance/value is probably BK. If it fits with your budget, then the XXLS400 is available from £450 to £530 subject to finish. This is a sealed enclosure sub which means a little less very deep bass (it still gets down to 20Hz) but faster response and easier to position which might be a factor in a relatively small room.

The other BK choice is the Monolith, available from £470. This is a ported sub. It goes deeper and louder. Whether you need that in this room could be debated. However, if you're likely to move sometime within the next 3-5 years then living with the ported sub now could be a good move in the longer term.

Both subs use 12" drivers. With BK you're buying direct from the manufacturer, and so what you would have given the dealer in margin is ploughed in to the product to make better performing subs. For example, instead of using Class D switch-mode amplification, both the above subs use the same kind of toroidal transformer design that you'd find in British audiophile stereo amps such as Creek, Roksan, Naim etc. There are also some lovely real wood finish options and the range has very attractive pricing.

SVS will get a mention too no doubt. This is a US brand that carved a reputation for very large subs beloved of the American market. I have to say, the 16" stuff is brutally impressive. Then again, the ported version is £3000 so it should be.

The company offers two 12" entry-level subs: The SB-1000 and PB-1000. S stands for sealed and P for Ported. Both are priced at around the £500 in the basic black wood-effect finish, or there are piano gloss white or black options at £630. You can buy through retailers up and down the country.


For players, the big question is which machines support HDR10+ and DolbyVision. That's been a bit of a problem until recently. Manufacturers have been in one camp or the other, but fortunately that's changing. Although not my favourite brand, if I was buying today then I'd throw £180 at the Sony UBPX700; it does DV and HDR10+, but there is a big caveat. Don't expect it to be slick or any good at streaming.

If our collective experience with smart TV and streaming is anything to go by, hardware manufacturers have shown themselves to be bloody useless at making something that is flexible and will keep working. The same is true of streaming features built in to BD and UHD players. Look elsewhere for your streaming solution. It could be an Android device, or nVidia Shield or a Firestick etc etc. Chances are they'll play more stuff and keep playing as new updates are rolled out.

Thanks for the response. Thats a bummer I forgot about the center speaker, what would you recommend?

I dont really care for streaming really but I have TV Shield, so thats sorted (I am on and off streaming subscriptions as I find them a little lacking in contant)

I have looked a bit on here and a lot do recommend the sub so I will look into it. I know that I was talking about the kef but is there a better option to the speakers and cheaper?

Kind regards
 
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Man of Honour
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29 May 2010
Posts
6,351
Location
Cheshire
Speakers:

Dali Spektor Vocal (centre) @ £170
Dali Spektor 2 (fronts, pair) @ £199
Dali Spektor 1 (surrounds, pair) @ £170

Pros: Compact and high quality speakers. Capable of punching above their price point
Cons: 6 Ohm and low efficiency (85-86dB) means they might not be the best choice for a lot of low volume listening


Monitor Audio Bronze Centre @ £139
Monitor Audio Bronze 2 (fronts, pair) @ £249
Monitor Audio Bronze 1 (surrounds, pair) @ £199

Pros: Bronze 2 are large for 'bookshelf' speakers, so they do decent bass. They're also easy to drive being 8 Ohm and 89-90dB
Cons: Bass on the Bronze 2 can overwhelm if positioned in room corners.


Monitor Audio Bronze Centre @ £139
Monitor Audio Bronze 2 (fronts, pair) @ £249
Monitor Audio BRFX (surrounds, pair) @ £249

Pros: BRFX are brilliant surround speakers for 5.1/7.1 diffuse rear surround, especially in smaller rooms where ordinary bookshelf speakers might be too close for comfort
Cons: Diffuse rear surrounds don't work well with Atmos set-ups


Wharfedale Diamond 11.CC (centre) @ £149 / Diamond 220 Centre @ £199
Wharfedale Diamond 220 (fronts, pair) @ £119
Wharfedale Diamond 220 (surrounds, pair) @ £119

Pros: Compact but very capable speakers despite the low (clearance?) price. 8 Ohms and 86dB makes them an easier load on an amp than 6 Ohm equivalents.
Cons: Range change at the moment, so getting the matching centre is getting harder



Alternatives:

Q Acoustics, Mission, Tannoy etc etc



None of the above will match the KEF Q150, but then again they're not £400/pr. The Yamaha amp will drive any of these, but the 8 Ohm impedance and high efficiency of the Monitor Audio speakers means they'll come alive at relatively low volumes, but they do need space around them if you want to avoid them getting a bit boomy at higher volumes.
 
Associate
OP
Joined
27 Feb 2013
Posts
54
Speakers:

Dali Spektor Vocal (centre) @ £170
Dali Spektor 2 (fronts, pair) @ £199
Dali Spektor 1 (surrounds, pair) @ £170

Pros: Compact and high quality speakers. Capable of punching above their price point
Cons: 6 Ohm and low efficiency (85-86dB) means they might not be the best choice for a lot of low volume listening


Monitor Audio Bronze Centre @ £139
Monitor Audio Bronze 2 (fronts, pair) @ £249
Monitor Audio Bronze 1 (surrounds, pair) @ £199

Pros: Bronze 2 are large for 'bookshelf' speakers, so they do decent bass. They're also easy to drive being 8 Ohm and 89-90dB
Cons: Bass on the Bronze 2 can overwhelm if positioned in room corners.


Monitor Audio Bronze Centre @ £139
Monitor Audio Bronze 2 (fronts, pair) @ £249
Monitor Audio BRFX (surrounds, pair) @ £249

Pros: BRFX are brilliant surround speakers for 5.1/7.1 diffuse rear surround, especially in smaller rooms where ordinary bookshelf speakers might be too close for comfort
Cons: Diffuse rear surrounds don't work well with Atmos set-ups


Wharfedale Diamond 11.CC (centre) @ £149 / Diamond 220 Centre @ £199
Wharfedale Diamond 220 (fronts, pair) @ £119
Wharfedale Diamond 220 (surrounds, pair) @ £119

Pros: Compact but very capable speakers despite the low (clearance?) price. 8 Ohms and 86dB makes them an easier load on an amp than 6 Ohm equivalents.
Cons: Range change at the moment, so getting the matching centre is getting harder



Alternatives:

Q Acoustics, Mission, Tannoy etc etc



None of the above will match the KEF Q150, but then again they're not £400/pr. The Yamaha amp will drive any of these, but the 8 Ohm impedance and high efficiency of the Monitor Audio speakers means they'll come alive at relatively low volumes, but they do need space around them if you want to avoid them getting a bit boomy at higher volumes.

Wow thanks, im so glad im subbed to this site, avfoums cant compare. Very informative, thank you!

If I were to get the kef what centre speaker would be good to go with it. Did look up the center kef but were a bit steep for me.

Regards
 
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Man of Honour
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If you're open to the idea of used gear, then something along the lines of the KEF iQ2C, Q6C or similar from the more recent ranges (post 2000 year).

They should be a close sonic match and do quite well until you can afford the matching KEF centre either new or used.
 
Soldato
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Posts
9,513
I'd add some more get a big quality center I've had kef q9, model 100 and model 200. Got kef reference to match. The center is a very important speaker in a movie system

The big 4 driver centers are in another league and worth it.

Also as for class ab versus d for subs sound quality etc I don't think it matters. With class d you will have option for high output designs. Ie 2000w RMS. You won't get that with class ab. Also heat issue with classic amps

However class d amps aren't repairable but class ab are.

If you buy ported sub consider having a sub sonic filter somewhere.
 
Soldato
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9,513
Also in the future if you are looking into separates consider a avr with pre outs. You may change your speakers later requiring better amps and/ or harder to drive less efficient speakers or may want to upgrade the (typically) poor amp stages in amps. Or both.
 
Associate
OP
Joined
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Posts
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I'd add some more get a big quality center I've had kef q9, model 100 and model 200. Got kef reference to match. The center is a very important speaker in a movie system

The big 4 driver centers are in another league and worth it.

Also as for class ab versus d for subs sound quality etc I don't think it matters. With class d you will have option for high output designs. Ie 2000w RMS. You won't get that with class ab. Also heat issue with classic amps

However class d amps aren't repairable but class ab are.

If you buy ported sub consider having a sub sonic filter somewhere.

I hope that I dont come off as an idiot but some of that i dont really understand. What setup do you suggest that is based on a 5.1. I was thinking of getting a second hand kef speakers such as the two rear and frount and center. With a AV What do you suggest, would like that new to be honest
 
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Associate
OP
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Posts
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Also in the future if you are looking into separates consider a avr with pre outs. You may change your speakers later requiring better amps and/ or harder to drive less efficient speakers or may want to upgrade the (typically) poor amp stages in amps. Or both.

Ok here is an updated list:


Yamaha RX-V685 (has pre-outs and is a 7.1 to update in the future)

Sony UBP-X700 4K player

KEF q650c, rear frount.

KEF Q650C center

XXLS400-DF Black 12" 400W Subwoofer

Edit:
Richersounds just gived me a quote:

Kef KUBE 8B
Kef Q150 2x
Kef Q650C
Audioquest
SUB CABLE 5M
Cambridge Audio ULTRA MICRO
Denon AVRX2500H
Panasonic DPUB820

Total: 2606.19

I wonder if the sub is good? I think i will pass on the player and get the Sony UBP-X700 as lucid recommend. Was thinking just going there as if anything goes wrong they can guid me step by step, if i buy from all different products from all over help will be difficult
 
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Man of Honour
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Cheshire
I've just seen your imagur picture. I'm a bit concerned about the corner position of the TV that you are planning. Where do you plan to put the right-hand front speaker?
 
Associate
OP
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Posts
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I've just seen your imagur picture. I'm a bit concerned about the corner position of the TV that you are planning. Where do you plan to put the right-hand front speaker?

I was going to put it on the unit but audio t told me to mount the TV more in the centre. I assume all the frount speakers needs to be in the center too?
 
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Soldato
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Bk will be better than the kef sub.

No problem buying different products just ask here or a forums and someone will help.

Not sure that Yamaha has full set of pre outs probably have to go higher end model they seem not to have them compared to 10 years ago , on low-medium.range they did ..
 
Associate
OP
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Bk will be better than the kef sub.

No problem buying different products just ask here or a forums and someone will help.

Not sure that Yamaha has full set of pre outs probably have to go higher end model they seem not to have them compared to 10 years ago , on low-medium.range they did ..

I heard that the BK sub has a built in sonic filter.

If I were to keep that list and have BK sub and the Kef one would that be a good starter.

Heck i got so much to save lol

I know I ask a lot of questions and people do tend to get fed up lol. Dont really want to be a burden ;)
 
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Man of Honour
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Ok here is an updated list:


Yamaha RX-V685 (has pre-outs and is a 7.1 to update in the future)

Sony UBP-X700 4K player

KEF q650c, rear frount.

KEF Q650C center

XXLS400-DF Black 12" 400W Subwoofer

Edit:
Richersounds just gived me a quote:

Kef KUBE 8B
Kef Q150 2x
Kef Q650C
Audioquest
SUB CABLE 5M
Cambridge Audio ULTRA MICRO
Denon AVRX2500H
Panasonic DPUB820

Total: 2606.19

I wonder if the sub is good? I think i will pass on the player and get the Sony UBP-X700 as lucid recommend. Was thinking just going there as if anything goes wrong they can guid me step by step, if i buy from all different products from all over help will be difficult

As @hornetstinger just said, and I said at some length earlier in the thread, a BK sub is the one to go for at £500. The KEF looks pretty, but if you want that size and performance you can get it in an 8" woofer BK sub (the Gemini II) for less than half the price, or you can comfortably beat it with the XLS200 for under £300.

You've got a thing for the KEF Q150 & Q650C - that's fine. They're great speakers.

The Audioquest sub cable (Audioquest Black? @ £49 for 5m)... meh. Save yourself £25 and get something that will work better and be miles easier to install. Go on to Amazon and search for 'Super-thin hum killer subwoofer install cable'. It's about the thickness of a USB cable and better shielded than almost any other sub lead you can buy regardless of price.

Cambridge Audio ULTRA MICRO speaker cable - another meh. For a start, you don't need a micro cable if it's going to be buried in-wall. Who the hell is going to visit; Superman, with his X-ray vision? :D

Honestly, if you're going to buy great speakers such as the KEFs then you want to get as much power to them as you can, and you do that by wasting as little as you can in the cables. What you need is copper, and a minimum of 1.5mm cross sectional area (CSA = the thickness). That's it. Everything else is window dressing. If you want it to be thin when it comes out of the wall, take off the outer jacket; just leave the red and the white sleeved conductors. When you do that, there won't be that much difference in thickness between regular cable and this ultra thin stuff anyway.

Conductor material, conductor thickness, and cable length will determine how much power is lost in cables in the journey from the amp to the speakers. All cables lose some power; that's just physics. An all-copper 1.5mm CSA cable will lose about 5% over a 10m run. That's an acceptable trade-off of power loss against cost.

I'll tell you what really bugs me though about the Cambridge Audio cable; there are no specs for it. Not even on the CA web site as far as I can see. What gives? Hell, they don't even say if it's copper or the much-cheaper aluminium underneath that silver plating.

It's £3.99/m for the thin stuff with pointless 'benefits' and higher power loss. You can buy better for less. QED QX16/2 is an all-copper install cable (pink jacket - LSZH). It's a thicker CSA and way cheaper too. It's under £1 a metre and will do a better job that the over-priced thin stuff.

Denon receiver - okay. It pulls a decent amount of power from the wall (500W) which is on par with the Yam 685. The only major caveat is that the Denons run hot. That's the output transistors working very hard. Onkyos were another hot running amp. They got themselves a rep for poor reliability. It's too early to tell if Denon have a problem in the making.


Re: buying from one place in case stuff goes wrong. Unless you're going to pay them to do a full install on your behalf, I'm not sure that they can be held that accountable for a bunch of boxes that left the shop.
 
Last edited:
Associate
OP
Joined
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Posts
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As @hornetstinger just said, and I said at some length earlier in the thread, a BK sub is the one to go for at £500. The KEF looks pretty, but if you want that size and performance you can get it in an 8" woofer BK sub (the Gemini II) for less than half the price, or you can comfortably beat it with the XLS200 for under £300.

You've got a thing for the KEF Q150 & Q650C - that's fine. They're great speakers.

The Audioquest sub cable (Audioquest Black? @ £49 for 5m)... meh. Save yourself £25 and get something that will work better and be miles easier to install. Go on to Amazon and search for 'Super-thin hum killer subwoofer install cable'. It's about the thickness of a USB cable and better shielded than almost any other sub lead you can buy regardless of price.

Cambridge Audio ULTRA MICRO speaker cable - another meh. For a start, you don't need a micro cable if it's going to be buried in-wall. Who the hell is going to visit; Superman, with his X-ray vision? :D

Honestly, if you're going to buy great speakers such as the KEFs then you want to get as much power to them as you can, and you do that by wasting as little as you can in the cables. What you need is copper, and a minimum of 1.5mm cross sectional area (CSA = the thickness). That's it. Everything else is window dressing. If you want it to be thin when it comes out of the wall, take off the outer jacket; just leave the red and the white sleeved conductors. When you do that, there won't be that much difference in thickness between regular cable and this ultra thin stuff anyway.

Conductor material, conductor thickness, and cable length will determine how much power is lost in cables in the journey from the amp to the speakers. All cables lose some power; that's just physics. An all-copper 1.5mm CSA cable will lose about 5% over a 10m run. That's an acceptable trade-off of power loss against cost.

I'll tell you what really bugs me though about the Cambridge Audio cable; there are no specs for it. Not even on the CA web site as far as I can see. What gives? Hell, they don't even say if it's copper or the much-cheaper aluminium underneath that silver plating.

It's £3.99/m for the thin stuff with pointless 'benefits' and higher power loss. You can buy better for less. QED QX16/2 is an all-copper install cable (pink jacket - LSZH). It's a thicker CSA and way cheaper too. It's under £1 a metre and will do a better job that the over-priced thin stuff.

Denon receiver - okay. It pulls a decent amount of power from the wall (500W) which is on par with the Yam 685. The only major caveat is that the Denons run hot. That's the output transistors working very hard. Onkyos were another hot running amp. They got themselves a rep for poor reliability. It's too early to tell if Denon have a problem in the making.


Re: buying from one place in case stuff goes wrong. Unless you're going to pay them to do a full install on your behalf, I'm not sure that they can be held that accountable for a bunch of boxes that left the shop.

Ok ok i go for the BK sub, I did look on their website too and they have speakers! Have you had experience with those? They look so nice
 
Man of Honour
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I thought I had seen bookshelf speakers on their site in the past. Can't seem to find them now, but possibly it's because I am browsing by phone.
 
Soldato
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22,598
Personally always preferred REL or SVS subs to BK, but it is a personal choice

I have some decent Monitor Audio Bronze speakers which are considered a decent budget range which have stood me in decent stead for a few years now, but whatever you do try and get the front three speakers from the same brand and preferably same range - it may not seem important now, but if they aren't tonally matched it can take you out of what you are watching long enough to be a distraction when audio is panned from one side to the other with a different speaker in the middle.

I have just got a Sony X700 which is a reasonable 4k player, but it is a bit plasticky in construction and not full width (which might or might not be important) - the X800 is very similar but built a lot better for the £80 or so more on the price tag. Performance imo of the X700 is decent enough although Ive only had the chance of trying a few discs.
 
Soldato
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As for matching versus non matching I would rather have higher quality non matching speakers, that inferior quality matching. Ie a while ago I had kef q75 speakers these were large floorstanders. The matching q speaker was the kef q9c. It was awful.

So i went for the kef model 200 reference. Non matching buy quality far exceeding the q9c. Also instead of just bring a two driver speaker it was a four driver speaker. Being physically bigger with more drivers wider frequency response higher max output it could keep up with the big q75's.
 
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