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Non Labour voters - What one thing might change your mind?

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by g67575, 5 May 2021.

  1. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: 17 Oct 2002

    Posts: 49,943

    Location: Plymouth

    You could make such an argument, it would be revisionist nonsense whose sole purpose is to try and rephrase a failed ideology by changing the fundamentals of economics, but don't let that stop you.

    For an encore are you going to suggest all countries practice Naziism for having the concept of citizenship?
     
  2. Murphy

    Soldato

    Joined: 16 Sep 2018

    Posts: 7,474

    Why so antagonistic? I never said anything about the origins of socialism, in fact I'd assumed that because you mentioned "Modern social democracies, such as the Nordic countries..." that it would've been fairly obvious that i too was referring to a possible modern interpretation, because let's face it you'd have to be pretty naive to think that in the modern world the people that makeup society could even own the means of production as Karl Marx's envisioned, the physical and non-financial things used in the production of goods and services.

    I get that you have a vehement dislike of socialism but there's really no need to be so adversarial, it's not exactly conducive to intelligent debate.
     
  3. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: 17 Oct 2002

    Posts: 49,943

    Location: Plymouth

    On re-reading my response, your comment is fair and I apologise, I could have responded in a much more constructive way with a much clearer explanation. Sorry.

    So, I disagree with your point largely because it involves totally ditching the established and accepted economic definition of what money is. I can see where you are going with the idea, and there's a whole set of discussions around the relationship between governments and money, whether money only exists because of governments, or government involvement simply improves it, and so on, but that's not really got anything to do with the means of production (which is another clearly defined concept already).
     
  4. Murphy

    Soldato

    Joined: 16 Sep 2018

    Posts: 7,474

    Thanks. I'm not sure how the definition of money and the governments relation to it comes in, what i meant was essentially it could be argued that the means of production is whatever you want to define money as, owning the physical and non-financial things used in the production of goods and services may have been possible 100+ years ago when people worked at mill and down the pit, when there were actual physical and non-financial things used in the production of goods and services like picks, looms, etc, etc. But in the modern world most developed economies don't produce value from physical items, most developed economies aren't manufacturing based as they were back in Marx's day.

    If we stick rigidly to the means of production definition there wouldn't be much that society would, or even could, own. And I'm not talking about the state owning it as that's not (afaik) how Marx defined the collective ownership thing, if I'm not mistaken he defined it as the people owning a spinning wheel, a hammer, part ownership of a loom, or other big machinery.
     
  5. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: 17 Oct 2002

    Posts: 49,943

    Location: Plymouth

    The smallest unit that can qualify as a means of production is a person, when the collective can instruct an individual to provide labour or ideas. This is the key part that makes socialism/communism such an authoritarian structure where it has been implemented in full, because while the philosophical idea proposes that this would be full engagement by consent, in reality it never can be.

    The level above that is collective control of the organisations and grouping structures that link different types of labour together to produce, distribute and manage more complex outputs (effectively, control of corporations or other structures that serve to produce an output).

    China largely does both of these things still, and is a bastion of human rights and freedoms.
     
  6. Tefal

    Capo Crimine

    Joined: 30 Jun 2007

    Posts: 68,269

    Location: Wales


    Time to start building massive nuclear powered hydroponic skyscrapers then we could turn the farm land into forrest or whatever the heck Britain's natural environment is meant to be
     
  7. 413x

    Capodecina

    Joined: 13 Jan 2010

    Posts: 23,309

    Location: Llaneirwg

    A promise for proportional representation... I'm so close to not voting. I only do because its in my personal morals. But I don't want to.

    Actual, measurable and accountable policies for environmental benefit.. The environment is the biggest issue to me anyone who supports projects like hs2 won't get my vote.

    Accepting the fact we have change taxes to pay for services that might not be pretty and spelling it out clearly... NHS needs more cash.

    International corps need to be taxed properly, individuals need to be taxed more. Otherwise everything will fall apart. I no idea what it looks like but needs to happen.


    And just having some clarity for voters. Seriously, I have no idea what Labour is, who would vote for them and what they stand for.



    I thought corbyn was bad. At least you knew where he stood.

    I voted Labour in Wales, but Welsh Labour are much clearer. I understand much more where they stand. No new roads (like Newport bypass) , improving rail and mass transit, clarity on covid.
    Mark drakeford isn't perfect, but I know where he stands.. To be honest, I'm more detached from UK politics than ever before. Glad Welsh Labour have control here at least. Even if my vote still doesn't matter, I do feel I have someone to vote for.
     
    Last edited: 13 Jul 2021
  8. 413x

    Capodecina

    Joined: 13 Jan 2010

    Posts: 23,309

    Location: Llaneirwg

    I was born in Suffolk. Lived in Lincolnshire for a number of years before moving to Wales.

    There is so so much farmland and. So little wild habitat. There is some in terms of land left to go wild and individually rich people buying up estates and letting it go wild but generally its field after field after field.
    You can't pretend places like Thetford forest are 'natural' they are plantation.

    Coming over to Wales the difference is stark. Because the land isn't suitable for arable you have much much more Woodland (particularly in Caerphilly County next to Cardiff). But even here you can see the cleared hillsides for sheep etc.

    People argue we aren't over populated but I disagree. We can't feed ourselves without imports to the standard we are at now.
    Houses are being build left right and centre. Importantly without the increase in infrastructure. Getting appointments at gps is ridiculous. And you can see why.

    I do not agree with any relaxation of planning permission. This country is a concrete jungle already free access to build where ever will just make. It worse.
     
  9. inflames

    Wise Guy

    Joined: 15 Oct 2016

    Posts: 1,045

    Corbyn being replaced as leader was step number one for me and they have already done that. Step number two, they need to come closer back the centre and I will consider voting for them once again.
     
  10. Quartz

    Capodecina

    Joined: 1 Apr 2014

    Posts: 13,982

    Location: Aberdeen

    Nope, it's not a quick judgement; rather it's long experience. You've got to be in 100% lock-step with the consensus-du-jour or you're thrown to the wolves. You can't point out a bad argument without being tossed with the enemy. And if you're not with us, you're with them. The online left has a truly rotten core.
     
  11. Tony Edwards

    Soldato

    Joined: 4 Feb 2018

    Posts: 7,152

    Thank god thats exclusive to the left or we would have a really bad government full of right wing idiots making other right wing idiots angry about the England football team taking a knee against racism.
     
  12. Quartz

    Capodecina

    Joined: 1 Apr 2014

    Posts: 13,982

    Location: Aberdeen

    Indeed, but the thread is about Labour and the political left so the behaviour of the right is not relevant.
     
  13. ebilcake

    Wise Guy

    Joined: 18 Oct 2007

    Posts: 1,433

    I don't think Labour can be saved.

    They're too far gone imo, the party needs to die
     
  14. g67575

    Mobster

    Joined: 30 Jun 2019

    Posts: 2,500

    If that is so, what would you like it be replaced with, besides a credible opposition party?
     
  15. Tefal

    Capo Crimine

    Joined: 30 Jun 2007

    Posts: 68,269

    Location: Wales


    Most Conservatives I know don't watch football tbf seems more of a labour past time?
     
  16. BowdonUK

    Soldato

    Joined: 17 Jan 2016

    Posts: 5,749

    I think Starmer needs to put forward some kind of future vision policy guide. Because like some people on the thread, I'm not actually sure what Labour stands for these days.

    I only remember what they used to stand for. But so far they aren't talking much about their own agenda.

    Someone asked on twitter what is 2 words to describe Boris and I replied "lucky b..." (I think you can guess the b word). Because so far there is no real opposition.
     
  17. coltpython3

    Wise Guy

    Joined: 14 Jan 2010

    Posts: 1,516

    Location: London

    I don't think Labour is coming back to the table ( and quite rightly so ) .

    In my heart I'm a socialist, but I cannot vote for this Labour party that is so embedded in their toxic identity politics, political correctness and support for racial division tactics. I have realized that the left do not want freedom, they want conformity... and any person that challenges their views or does not follow their narrative on certain topics or social sciences such as feminism, BLM, Transgenderism is either labelled a racist, bigot, xenophobe, misogynist or even a far right Nazi and will be cancelled which makes me wonder who is the dogmatic one here? ( also ironic and hypocritical considering the left are supposed to be liberals and understand that somebody might have a different political stance or view )

    This was also true when it came to Brexit... the left shouted " they did not know what they were voting for!!!" which is nothing but insulting and rude to put words into the mouths of 17.5 million people who voted for Brexit. What they did not understand was that they called their own electorate ignorant and arrogant and then are in disbelief why the working class abandoned Labour in the next GE.

    Essentially Labour does not represent the working class anymore... they represent white middle class liberals, LGBT+, young people/university graduates and ethnic groups... they have completely abandoned the working class

    I still haven't got the faintest idea as to why Diane Abbot is also in the party?, the woman is incompetent who cannot string 2 words together to form a sentence and I am also sure that she is completely and utterly racist.

    My conclusion to the question " what would make me change my mind?" The answer would be absolutely nothing. I think Labour need to go and disappear for 20 odd years and think about their actions.
     
  18. cheesyboy

    Capodecina

    Joined: 7 Dec 2012

    Posts: 15,104

    Location: Gloucestershire

    You "identity politics" guys always tell on yourselves.

    What is it about back bench MP Dianne Abbott that makes her so important to why you don't like Labour?!

    She's a political irrelevance.
     
  19. coltpython3

    Wise Guy

    Joined: 14 Jan 2010

    Posts: 1,516

    Location: London

    No, she is a relevant considering that she represents the Labour party . I believe her to be a racist ( which goes against the so called "values" of Labour ) and sometimes I wonder if she is in parliament because she's black so Labour can prove about their so called progressive "diversity" politics. . Of course I cannot prove this, but something is telling me I'm right..., which would also be racist because you are marginalizing other candidates because they are not BAME let's say.
     
  20. cheesyboy

    Capodecina

    Joined: 7 Dec 2012

    Posts: 15,104

    Location: Gloucestershire

    Like I said: you "identity politics" guys always tell on yourselves ;)

    She's a very longstanding and popular MP within her constituency.