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Non Labour voters - What one thing might change your mind?

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by g67575, 5 May 2021.

  1. kinetic747

    Mobster

    Joined: 2 Apr 2006

    Posts: 2,894

    Watching Emily Thornberry on Andrew Marr this morning not answer a single question either yes or no, is why this country is in the mess we're in. If there's no clarification on what your policies are and how exactly you'd differ from the opposition, how are you meant to win the vote? I'm almost 60 and, despite the worst government in my memory, Labour aren't coming across as a viable alternative, it's mind boggling.
     
  2. 413x

    Capodecina

    Joined: 13 Jan 2010

    Posts: 23,497

    Location: Llaneirwg

    It really is. Boris can basically get away with anything. I can't imagine how bad it would have to get to get a different party in. The non tory voters are so split (me included).
     
  3. ubersonic

    Capodecina

    Joined: 26 May 2009

    Posts: 21,143

    This is the basic problem Labour has, most left wingers are more interested in fighting with each other over what type of left wing ideology is the correct left wing ideology, than they are in fighting the Tories over if rich people should have to pay tax or not.

    It's quite sad, but the Tories did not win any of the last four elections by actually making themselves look appealing, they won them by making labours leadership look unappealing to enough labour voters to tip the scales (in fairness a rgeat plan, when you're the only major right ring party then getting your own supporters out really isn't an issue). Tell the far left Labour voters that Brown or Miliband are just "red Tories", job done. Tell the left of centre Labour voters that Corbyn is the reincarnation of Lenin, job done.

    The craziest thing about all of it, is that the far left pro-Corbyn supporters, who spent most of 2015-2019 moaning about how "sheeple" kept falling for the lies about Corbyn, have arguably become the single biggest force in sharing/spreading the anti-Starmer lies that look likely to keep the Tories in power until the late 2020s...
     
  4. g67575

    Mobster

    Joined: 30 Jun 2019

    Posts: 2,747

    About the Tories making Labour's recent leaders look bad, I think that's true, because it was quite an easy thing to do. Personally though, I think Gordon Brown was a bit underrated, considering much of his time as PM was spent dealing with major problems.

    Labour hasn't tried to win over older people who claim a state pension or pension credits. They could also do more to appeal to home owners. These groups on average tend to vote Tory (and account for many millions of voters), if Starmer wants to win an election, he has to win over people Labour hasn't tried to convince under previous leaders.
     
  5. GR63

    Wise Guy

    Joined: 28 May 2021

    Posts: 1,017

    Location: Herts

    Labour needs to do a better job hiding its divisions. All parties have them but some do a better job hiding. When Blair was in charge Labour almost looked united.
     
  6. Tefal

    Capo Crimine

    Joined: 30 Jun 2007

    Posts: 68,372

    Location: Wales


    I think it can be summed up currently as;

    Labour appeal to those with something to gain, the Conservatives appeal to those with something to lose.


    And its the latter group that has the motivation to vote
     
  7. g67575

    Mobster

    Joined: 30 Jun 2019

    Posts: 2,747

    @Tefal - that's an interesting way to put it, it could be true.

    When you look at the huge number who collect state pensions, they have mostly been protected by the Tories, even if the NHS funding and training have been cut in some areas and demand for social care has increased.
     
  8. GR63

    Wise Guy

    Joined: 28 May 2021

    Posts: 1,017

    Location: Herts

    Pensions is a huge issue on its own... They are not funded correctly as the population demographic ages... yet nobody wants to sort it out by increasing taxes (or NI) as that doesnt win votes.. and increasing pension ages also is not a vote winner... Which brings us to the issue with elected politicians rather than randomly selected ones...
     
  9. Tefal

    Capo Crimine

    Joined: 30 Jun 2007

    Posts: 68,372

    Location: Wales

    Literally just had an NI raise
     
  10. Tefal

    Capo Crimine

    Joined: 30 Jun 2007

    Posts: 68,372

    Location: Wales

    Also home owners and employed people.

    The government that protects the value of my home, that increases my tax free allowance, that increases my future pension is one I'm a lot more motivated to keep in power.

    People wanting the promise of some higher benefits or vauge hand waving promises about (tbh I can't think of a current Labour policy, is there any yet?) Aren't as motivated because this stuff never materialises and life is harder and there are bigger issues to deal with for them. Abstract party politics isn't a high priority.
     
  11. g67575

    Mobster

    Joined: 30 Jun 2019

    Posts: 2,747

    Not sure just higher benefits on its own would get Labour more votes. Remember that the State Pension is also a kind of state funded welfare, however most recipients tend to believe they have earned it (presumably even though it has been increased by about a third since 2011, often above inflation).

    State Pension spending also happens to be larger than overall Welfare Spending, at about £100 billion a year, see link:
    https://www.statista.com/statistics/283917/uk-state-pension-costs/

    I think a lot of people vote Labour, because Labour governments have invested in public services and the Labour party wants them to be a successful and important part of our lives, rather than grudgingly accept the need for like the Conservatives, who when elected, have attempted to shrink public services to reduce the burden on tax payers.
     
    Last edited: 15 Oct 2021
  12. BowdonUK

    Soldato

    Joined: 17 Jan 2016

    Posts: 5,889

    This +1

    I don't know what it is with Labour but they get in to tunnel vision trying to outsmart the interviewer and seemingly forget that they are also talking to the public.
     
  13. GR63

    Wise Guy

    Joined: 28 May 2021

    Posts: 1,017

    Location: Herts

    But for funding other spending not the pensions blackhole
     
  14. g67575

    Mobster

    Joined: 30 Jun 2019

    Posts: 2,747

    Looks like public spending on health care will overtake the total spend on pensions this year:
    https://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/year_spending_2021UKbn_17bc1n_8s#ukgs302

    But the notion that spending on State Pensions and Pension Credit doesn't count as Welfare is obviously nonsense.

    Both parties have increased spending on welfare, it has just been granted to different groups of people.
     
    Last edited: 15 Oct 2021
  15. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: 17 Oct 2002

    Posts: 50,087

    Location: Plymouth

    UK politics essentially relies on constant demands to take more from 'them' and give more to 'us', the only thing that changes is who the us and them are.

    It's one the reasons I advocate universal benefits and flat tax rates, they are a lot harder to manipulate to have a disproportionate impact on whoever the 'Them' are.
     
  16. GR63

    Wise Guy

    Joined: 28 May 2021

    Posts: 1,017

    Location: Herts

    I'd sign up for SOME sort of change in taxes, benefits.. we can't keep churning the same rubbish that does not work.. but also need to tackle avoidance SERIOUSLY
     
  17. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: 17 Oct 2002

    Posts: 50,087

    Location: Plymouth

    Tax avoidance is mostly due to exploiting the complexity of the system, simplifying the system significantly makes tax avoidance much harder.

    Tax evasion is a bigger challenge while physical cash exists, abolishing physical cash is the single quickest way to reduce tax evasion.
     
    Last edited: 16 Oct 2021
  18. Energize

    Caporegime

    Joined: 12 Mar 2004

    Posts: 29,322

    Location: England

    I think with digital investments and cryptocurrencies tax evasion is going to get harder to prevent, not easier.
     
  19. Hagar

    Capodecina

    Joined: 1 Mar 2010

    Posts: 11,179

    Location: 5 degrees starboard

    After yesterday, a cringing on her knees apology from Ms Rayner.

    She seems to be in hiding though....

    Deputy leader my ****.
     
  20. potatolord

    Wise Guy

    Joined: 21 Jan 2010

    Posts: 1,275

    Her recent "scum" comments haven't aged well, have they?