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Offensive and Dangerous Weapons - New Legislation

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by nox_uk, Dec 1, 2017.

  1. nox_uk

    Hitman

    Joined: Sep 12, 2006

    Posts: 626

    https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/offensive-and-dangerous-weapons-new-legislation

    Curious on people views.

    Personally, they should be illegal in places of higher education (I was a bit shocked to learn this was not the case!) and corrosive substances should not be allowed in public places (age limits maybe?)

    Gun law changes seemed logical

    But making it illegal to possess items such as 'zombie knives' (I don't like them btw) in private I can't see any logic with, at least not whilst kitchen knives, chainsaws and axes etc are completely legal to own at home.
     
  2. jpod

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jun 16, 2011

    Posts: 1,680

    Location: Cheshire

    Hi that is an interesting post, thanks.

    I had a quick look and I will read it in full. I think the brief summary referred to making them illegal in all relevant educational establishments not just schools.

    We already have austere gun laws.

    There are no Zombies and since these appeal to young people a ban makes sense. Why do you need one at home and why would you need to carry one around.
     
  3. cheesyboy

    Capodecina

    Joined: Dec 7, 2012

    Posts: 11,904

    Location: Gloucestershire

    You can't see the logic in banning a rather nasty weapon that serves no purpose beyond maiming and killing other than looking badass, whilst allowing regular household tools?
     
  4. billysielu

    Capodecina

    Joined: Aug 9, 2009

    Posts: 11,442

    Location: Oxfordshire

    I think the key point is these people don't obey the law. So you can ban as much as you want but it wont make a difference. Raise the penalty to life (or death) and that might set an example.
     
  5. Orionaut

    Soldato

    Joined: Aug 2, 2012

    Posts: 6,570

    Indeed, there is not much point in further restrictions on the wider public if gangs of armed robbers only end up getting a couple of years each despite having committed multiple offenses.

    It is the criminals that need targeting, not the tools.

    I read the other day a claim (Unconfirmed) that back in the day of teddy boys, the knife thing was getting a bit out of hand up until the point where a Judge handed down 14 year sentences each for affray on a gang of knife wielding youths.

    Things settled down a bit after that. That's what we need more of, not more restrictions on the wider public.
     
  6. Nasher

    Capodecina

    Joined: Nov 22, 2006

    Posts: 14,214

    The banning of certain types of knife is pretty pointless when anyone can buy large knives over the counter for cooking with. Something that can't be changed.
     
  7. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 13, 2006

    Posts: 64,644

    I do somewhat share the concerns of some others that these changes risk essentially making people guilty until proven innocent in too many cases.

    The concern about .50 rifles seems a bit odd - only a tiny number of people can even get access to them in this country and you already need significant justification to obtain the classification for a permit which pretty much no one who was planning on something would be able to obtain. Those tiny number that do have them take the rules, etc. very seriously and unlikely themselves to be a problem and most will take significant measures to prevent those weapons getting into the hands of anyone else who might be upto no good. The risks seem so small its daft.

    The other one I'm all for - very few people have any justification or need for anything that can enhance the rate of fire and/or ability to accurate place follow up shots on a target outside of those who might be doing pest control of dangerous animals, etc. which largely isn't relevant to the UK except in exceptional circumstances which hopefully would be covered by some appropriate legislation.
     
  8. Hotwired

    Soldato

    Joined: Aug 17, 2009

    Posts: 7,101

    .50 cal rifles are not small or light or cheap or quiet.

    What kind of logic makes this worth using for criminal activity other than a low probability theory.

    Even in america where it's relatively easy to obtain these (compared to the UK) criminals cannot be bothered with these cannons.
     
  9. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 13, 2006

    Posts: 64,644

    In the UK legislation means they are only available in straight pull/bolt action anyhow so although the destructive power is pretty nasty in most cases they'd be completely out matched by law enforcement anyhow.

    If someone has somehow obtained a semi-automatic one in the UK then no amount of legislation will deal with that.
     
  10. Hotwired

    Soldato

    Joined: Aug 17, 2009

    Posts: 7,101

    The drum being banged about being able to go through body armour is garbage also.

    Body armour comes in various grades, generally just covers the torso and unless you're seeing law enforcement wearing bulky vests which have hard plates inside they aren't going to be stopping regular rifle bullets anyway.

    Police officers are generally wearing stab resistant vests which are not proper bullet protection in the first place.

    Just an easy target to write off as if it has a meaningful impact and then claim to be doing something useful.
     
  11. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 13, 2006

    Posts: 64,644

    Does seem to be a case of looking like doing something useful, oooh those scary sniper rifles, while not actually accomplishing anything other than unnecessarily impacting on a small number of people who are minding their own business and not a problem but who cares about them.

    Seems to be pretty much the story with this government.
     
  12. Vonhelmet

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jun 28, 2005

    Posts: 48,109

    Location: On the hoods

    The .50 cal thing will be for completeness as much as anything. It’s arguably redundant in that, as said, no one has these weapons anyway, but equally it’s not going to the sort of law that suddenly results in hours of wasted police time pursuing something innocuous. It’ll go on the books and be largely forgotten about.

    The knives and acid are the more interesting bits here.
     
  13. TallPaul1878

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Oct 21, 2012

    Posts: 2,333

    Whilst I'm fine with laws being updated as and when they need to be it does smack of "doing it for the sake of being seen to be doing something".

    The issues around violent crime are not with the laws. We've had perfectly good laws for decades. The issue is the inability to hand down any meaningful sentencing and the lack of desire from the public, the government and the police to clamp down on violent criminals.

    These roving gangs that infest our ciry streets only understand the language of violence. So we should speak to them in a language that they can understand.

    We need robust policing, targeted stop searches need to come back, thugs need to know the police will rough them up and harrass them. Then the law needs to come down hard on them, examples need to be made and long sentences handed down.

    Of course none of this will happen. There'd be outpourings of wailing mothers when yet another young thug is roughed up by the cops.
     
  14. Angilion

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Dec 5, 2003

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    Location: Just to the left of my PC

    I think that's the biggest factor in the whole idea of "offensive weapons", with almost all the rest being knee-jerk responses to anything that gets a lot of media attention at the time. Like all the "ninja" stuff, for example. I'm fairly sure there isn't and never has been a significant threat in the UK from "ninjas" armed with modern fantasy "ninja" weapons (which have little or no connection to actual ninjas - almost all the modern idea of ninjas was made up centuries after ninjas ceased to exist).

    Then there's the problem with the definitions, which are either so precise that they can easily be worked around or so imprecise they cover all sorts of things. For example, the definition for one of the fantasy "ninja" weapons that's on the list describes a fishing rod (amongst many other things).

    I can't think of any purpose to this law other than appeasing the media and as a blanket law to harass whoever the authorities want to harass (although they have far more effective laws for that purpose). Almost all real knife offences (i.e. not simply having a banned type of knife) involve a tool, usually a kitchen knife. They're sharp, strong and very easily obtained. There's no way to differentate between a tool knife and a weapon knife, since they're essentially the same thing - a blade with a handle.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2017
  15. Nasher

    Capodecina

    Joined: Nov 22, 2006

    Posts: 14,214

    I've never heard of anyone being killed by ninjas, or ninja weapons in the UK lol

    Or .50 cal weapons, they aren't exactly the best for concealment...
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2017
  16. Angilion

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Dec 5, 2003

    Posts: 16,433

    Location: Just to the left of my PC

    The offensive weapons list in the UK is very heavy on "ninja" stuff. Really, it is. Laughably so. About half of the weapons on the proscribed list are "ninja". Not that any of those things really have any connection to actual ninjas, who were nothing like the modern idea of "ninjas". Real ninjas were mainly spies, who dressed in whatever way blended in and rarely fought while doing ninja stuff. Many weren't even trained to fight, since it was hardly ever necessary. As far as I know, there's no evidence of any weaponry actually associated with real ninjas - when they did fight, they used the usual weapons on their time and place. But in any case, the modern fantasy "ninja" is the basis for a large proportion of the offensive weapons list. For some reason. It probably ties into the media thing again - OMG NINJA WEAPONS ARE EVERYWHERE headlines forcing the authorities to Do Something About It. Or maybe someone in the government had a phobia about "ninjas". Who knows?

    Sure they are - I'm carrying several in Fallout 4 right now and they're all perfectly concealed :)
     
  17. Nasher

    Capodecina

    Joined: Nov 22, 2006

    Posts: 14,214

    Maybe they took Southpark way to seriously :D

     
  18. Angilion

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Dec 5, 2003

    Posts: 16,433

    Location: Just to the left of my PC

    My favourite is the "offensive weapon" ("ninja", of course) that is legally defined as:

    That's the exact wording in the law - the list of prohibited weapons to which section 141 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 (which is still current) applies.

    A fishing rod is a length of cord fastened at one end to a hard weight and at the other end to a hand grip. I really wasn't joking when I mentioned a fishing rod earlier - fishing rods genuinely do meet the legal definition of an offensive weapon in the UK and are illegal to even own unless they are at least 100 years old.
     
  19. krooton

    Caporegime

    Joined: May 9, 2004

    Posts: 25,447

    Location: Leafy outskirts of London

    As is a skipping rope :D
     
  20. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 13, 2006

    Posts: 64,644

    Dunno if anyone was killed but ninja/zombie knife type stuff was used in a fair few pretty horrific incidents in a town near me before the bans, etc. sure they could use a bread knife, etc. but these incidents seem to have died down since it became high profile.