Organ Donation by Default

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memphisto said:
Because there my organs, its my body and therefore is up to me to decide what to do with it, not you, not the guilt brigade and certainly not the state.

You want organ donation and you want to save lives ? Opt In, its fairly simple.

The change to opt out is more than a simple change it in my opinion is a huge change as basically the state now owns your body and its up to you to opt out.

the further worry i have about an opt out system is how do you opt out ? Tick a box ? send a letter ? get interviewed by the thought police as to why you want to opt out ? an appointment with your GP ? (who only work 9-5 when most of us are at work) will it take 12 months to process yer opt out but in the meantime yer ripe for the taking ? will the database be secure ? can it be hacked ? will your records actually be updated by some numpty in an governemnt office ? On the form if you smudge a letter will it be rejected ?

theres so many ways an opt out system can be implemented so you cant actually opt out, and that to me is the very worrying situation.
Very well put memphisto. I agree with what you say.

The most insidious aspect is that the state has control over your body by default. This negates any debate over the morality of organ donation.

edit: just read the article on the BBC News website - "presumed consent" - just wait for this term to be used more and more... :(
 
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Vanilla said:
I'm against this system. I shouldn't have to 'OPT Out' of anything.

It's my body and if I want my organs to go elsewhere after I die i'll let you know by saying so. I do not want to be forced to register or carry a card saying I want to opt out.

I don't need any other excuse. I don't need to tag it on religion or anything.
Agreed. You shouldn't need to justify it to those who want to opt-in either.
 
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melbourne720 said:
It's worrying how selfish people are! You'd think that on their death everyone was planning to be resting in state or something!

1 of 3 things will happen to your body's organs when you die.

1. A doctor will remove them and transplant them into someone else, giving someone, possibly someone you care about, the chance of life.

2. They will be pointlessly consumed by fire in a crematorium, and the ash will be scattered or put on someone' mantelpiece in a pot. The CO2 will warm up the planet. This is currently what happens to the vast majority of people.

3. The worms will eat them.

There are people on the transplant list who die because transplant organs aren't found in time. I personally believe that if you don't carry an organ donor card you should be ineligible from receiving donor organs... discuss :eek:

Okay that last bit was a bit far, but it has a certain symmetry to it...
I quite agree.

West said:
im not being selfish, I just dont like the idea of someone desicrating my body.
Er... that is selfish. You'll be dead, you'll never know. And what's so bad about "desecrating" your body anyway?

memphisto said:
what about the flip side ?

people who dont want to give there organs but cant be bothered to opt out ?

this is nothing more than a trap in my eyes. This should always remain opt in, opt out is simply a trap.
If they can't be bothered to opt out, their organs can be used to save lives. It's using the apathetic for something useful ;) (instead of now, where people who can't be bothered to opt in are just burned or buried)

memphisto said:
Because there my organs, its my body and therefore is up to me to decide what to do with it, not you, not the guilt brigade and certainly not the state.

You want organ donation and you want to save lives ? Opt In, its fairly simple.

The change to opt out is more than a simple change it in my opinion is a huge change as basically the state now owns your body and its up to you to opt out.

the further worry i have about an opt out system is how do you opt out ? Tick a box ? send a letter ? get interviewed by the thought police as to why you want to opt out ? an appointment with your GP ? (who only work 9-5 when most of us are at work) will it take 12 months to process yer opt out but in the meantime yer ripe for the taking ? will the database be secure ? can it be hacked ? will your records actually be updated by some numpty in an governemnt office ? On the form if you smudge a letter will it be rejected ?

theres so many ways an opt out system can be implemented so you cant actually opt out, and that to me is the very worrying situation.
.

I do like the compromise of priority transplants for people who are donors, however. Seems fair to me.

And what's with all the people and the eyes? As far as I know, they only take the cornea (maybe other bits also), not the whole thing. And even if they did, so what? I won't be using it. It's up to the recipient to decide if having someone elses eyes is too creepy and they'd rather be blind... :confused:


CaneyJ said:
Ok so out of all the people in this discussion, how many actually have organ donor cards? Oh and what is the best way of obtaining one?
I do. Got it online. Took bloody ages to arrive though. I'm also registered as a bone marrow donor and would be regularly going to blood donation sessions if they'd ever send me the letters telling me when they are. An email would be fine, you know?

I'd also like to sign up to have the rest of me that isn't used for organ donation given to medical science for research and experiments, but I've no idea how to go about doing that. Does anyone else know?
 
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Mr.Clark said:
Surely you opt out by carrying the "I'm a ******* and won't donate" card instead of the "I'm a nice person, use my organs" card that we have at the moment.

I do like the compromise of priority transplants for people who are donors, however. Seems fair to me.

surely the system now works well enough then ?

I'll stay here not carrying a card and you carry the "Im so high and mighty because my body will be used to save others card"

And priority transplants what a ******** Idea its like cutting off yer nose to spite yer face.

as it stands I dont want to donate my organs, however if i was in the situation whereby someone elses saved my life I may well change my mind. If Im told sorry because you arent willing to donate yours is nothing short of ridiculous.

I really hate overzealous pomped up guilt brigade warriors who think there cause is so just and high and mighty that they can go around calling everyone who does not agree with them "********"

if you want discussion stay in here, if you want to throw yer toys out of the pram and start slinging insults because people disagree with you go back to nursery school.

The question of opt in or opt out for many of us is more than a simple 2your a £$%£$% because you wont donate your organs" For example my missus wants to donate but as it stands I would say no. If you have to give consent which I believe you do at the hospital there is no way I would let them remove organs from my wife, eventhough they are her wishes. I have told her this and she understands why.

Simply I love her, she is my wife, I do not want anyone cutting her open and harvesting her organs after she dies, when she is dead that is it, I want to bury her altogether as she was born and as she dies, I want to put all of her to rest. That would make me happy I could live with that, to know I put to the grave an empty shell and that someone else who i do not now has parts of my loved one inside of her is not something i want to go through, the feeling that well some part of her does not wash with me. In all honesty it would upset me greatly knowing that.

Other people may well rejoice in the fact there partners saved lives, I would not, as it stands today this may change with time it may not but I dont fully think I could get over my wife passing knowing part of her was still alive, but thats just me.

That reflects like a mirror on me I would not be happy knowing that my organs would be harvested and i would be put to the grave an empty shell, which is why as it stands I would opt out.

The problem is I believe the intentions here are to create a system whereby it will be very difficult to opt out and organ donation will become the norm. I dont want that at all, the body is the only thing the state at present has nothing to do with and it in my view should stay that way.

The reason this is coming about is because there s a lack of organ donors that may well be true however if 99/9% of the nation feels like me there will always be a shortage of organ donors, the fact that its an opt in system means that anyone who wants to do so has ample chance, all through there lives, on there deathbed even and right up till the end. The problem with an opt out system is that depending on need the rules for opting out can be changed, you thought you were out however because you didnt send in an updated form every 6 months theres nothing we can do yer harvested.

A system where we as individuals have to opt out of a state programme system is very worrying to our basic freedoms, civil liberties and everything else that goes along with it.

As a different solution, they are saying they think more people would donate if they could, well lets increase advertising, lets have more taught about it in schools or wherever, lets make the system to opt in far easier to do, raise awareness of it and give everyone the oppurtunity to opt in ?

Question is why arent they doing that ? maybe its the pessimist in me but i can only think of sinister reasons.
 
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Mr.Clark said:
I do. Got it online. Took bloody ages to arrive though. I'm also registered as a bone marrow donor and would be regularly going to blood donation sessions if they'd ever send me the letters telling me when they are. An email would be fine, you know?

I'd also like to sign up to have the rest of me that isn't used for organ donation given to medical science for research and experiments, but I've no idea how to go about doing that. Does anyone else know?
I fully respect your wishes of becoming a bone marrow and organ donator. I respect your wish to donate your body to medical research. I respect your wish to donate blood. I guess it makes you a "nice person"

Mr.Clark said:
Surely you opt out by carrying the "I'm a ******* and won't donate" card instead of the "I'm a nice person, use my organs" card that we have at the moment.
Why is someone who doesn't want to donate their organs "a *******"?
 
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Legoman said:
Why is someone who doesn't want to donate their organs "a *******"?

I wouldnt call them a "*******" maybe selfish,i mean its not everyday you get to save the life of someone else is it?
 
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Deluxe1 said:
I wouldnt call them a "*******" maybe selfish,i mean its not everyday you get to save the life of someone else is it?


why is it selfish, seriously explain that to me ?

do you earn money ? have a nice house ? why dont you give it all away and live on the bare minimum you can while giving the rest to charity to save lives ? giving £200 a month to charity would probably save more lives in the long run than organ donation so why arent you doing that ?


arguing it is selfish, is not an argument its a cop out same as our firend above calling everyone who doesnt a £$%$£$%.
 
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Personally I'd donate my organs if I knew it could save someone else's life. When I'm dead, as far as I'm concerned, I'm a shell and my "soul" (whatever that may be), isn't there any longer. I'm very convinced of that after seeing my nan dead years ago. I'd seen her alive hours before in the hospital and when I saw her to say goodbye something important was missing. Her "soul" was gone, it was very noticeable to me. I'd love the opportunity to save someone else the heartache that losing a loved one brings. One body could save a few lives and that is so worthwhile. Bodies just decay and rot in a grave so they everything disappears one way or the other, just one way you can save someone else.

My husband feels the same way but for different reasons, he doesn't believe in a soul at all and so wants to donate everything he can once he's gone. I'll respect that just as I respect his living wishes that are about him and his body. I would never go against something like that.

If, god forbid, anything happened to any of my children it would be much harder but I like to think that I would do the right thing and save another child by letting them take the organs. I wouldn't want anyone else to die if I could help it.

I remember the pain of losing my nan and other family members and wouldn't want someone else to feel that if my dead body could help. The joy that you could bring many other people would be worthwhile and the lives that you change.
 
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memphisto said:
surely the system now works well enough then ?

...

I really hate overzealous pomped up guilt brigade warriors who think there cause is so just and high and mighty that they can go around calling everyone who does not agree with them "********"

...

The question of opt in or opt out for many of us is more than a simple 2your a £$%£$% because you wont donate your organs" For example my missus wants to donate but as it stands I would say no. If you have to give consent which I believe you do at the hospital there is no way I would let them remove organs from my wife, eventhough they are her wishes. I have told her this and she understands why.


...

the fact that its an opt in system means that anyone who wants to do so has ample chance, all through there lives, on there deathbed even and right up till the end.
So you say that everyone has a chance of becoming an organ donor, yet freely admit that should your wife pre-decease you, she can't be.

You're calling me an "overzealous pomped up guilt brigade warrior" for wanting to save lives after my death, yet admit that you'd disrespect your own wife's wishes because you don't believe in organ donation?

If that's not the definition of hypocrite, I don't know what is. I'm not trying to launch a personal attack or anything, but I can't find a gentler way of saying that.

The question of opt in or opt out for many of us is more than a simple 2your a £$%£$% because you wont donate your organs" For example my missus wants to donate but as it stands I would say no. If you have to give consent which I believe you do at the hospital there is no way I would let them remove organs from my wife, eventhough they are her wishes. I have told her this and she understands why.

That reflects like a mirror on me I would not be happy knowing that my organs would be harvested and i would be put to the grave an empty shell, which is why as it stands I would opt out.
What would you say if she said that she'd donate your organs if you died first? Would you respect her for that, or throw a hissy fit because it's your choice?
 
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JodieG said:
I would do the right thing and save another child by letting them take the organs.


totally respect your opinon on this jodie, except for the bit above.

why would it be the "right thing"

honest question, I feel it would be your choice and good on you for chossing that route, however why is it the "right thing" ?
 
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memphisto said:
totally respect your opinon on this jodie, except for the bit above.

why would it be the "right thing"

honest question, I feel it would be your choice and good on you for chossing that route, however why is it the "right thing" ?

Why wouldnt it be the "right thing" to save someone elses life?
 
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memphisto said:
why is it selfish, seriously explain that to me ?

do you earn money ? have a nice house ? why dont you give it all away and live on the bare minimum you can while giving the rest to charity to save lives ? giving £200 a month to charity would probably save more lives in the long run than organ donation so why arent you doing that ?


arguing it is selfish, is not an argument its a cop out same as our firend above calling everyone who doesnt a £$%$£$%.
How you live your life is your business. But after you die, the body has to be disposed of one way or another. How is it anything other than selfish (perhaps ******* is a little harsh... perhaps not. You decide) to say that potentially life saving organs should be destroyed rather than let someone else have them?

I'm not trying to be obstreperous here, I honestly can't see any non-selfish reason for not donating something that you not only don't need but can't use, will never miss and never be aware it's been taken.
 
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Mr.Clark said:
What would you say if she said that she'd donate your organs if you died first? Would you respect her for that, or throw a hissy fit because it's your choice?


Hissy fit ? can you not put a point across without insulting someone ?

I would nt throw a "hissy fit" I would sit down with her and discuss my wishes, the same as i have done in as much as discussing hers, thats pretty much how adults do things I thought. If she could convince me of the reasons why organ donation is good and why I should donate i may change my mind.

Im certain though she wouldnt call me a "*******" for not wanting to have my organs harvested.


PS Thats the only section of yer post I am going to respond to the rest is choice quoptations from a long post on why I would do what I would. Quoting sections of the argument and then calling me a hypocrite based on that small section is not debating the points i made and the resons why it is simply picking an argument to suit yourself.
 
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memphisto said:
totally respect your opinon on this jodie, except for the bit above.

why would it be the "right thing"

honest question, I feel it would be your choice and good on you for chossing that route, however why is it the "right thing" ?

I completely understand where you're coming from and I think I worded that wrong. I should have said right thing for me to do, certainly not for everyone. I can't help thinking that what if my child needed an organ or they'd die and if another child died and their parents said no to donation and so then my child died too. I do see how people just can't because they don't want their child/parent/partner cut open but I hope that people try to see beyond that and the amount of people that you could make happy by agreeing to donation. General you not you specifically.

Organ donation is a very emotive subject, and rightly so, it's very hard to debate or even think about it. Noone wants to make those decisions but do hope that more people allow their organs to be donated as people do die all the time when they don't need to had they had an organ donated.
 
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Mr.Clark said:
How you live your life is your business.


and what happens to me after I die is my business.


But after you die, the body has to be disposed of one way or another. How is it anything other than selfish (perhaps ******* is a little harsh... perhaps not. You decide) to say that potentially life saving organs should be destroyed rather than let someone else have them?

I'm not trying to be obstreperous here, I honestly can't see any non-selfish reason for not donating something that you not only don't need but can't use, will never miss and never be aware it's been taken.

how is earning mor ethan you need, driving a posh car, earning a massive house while others livce is dispicable poverty nothing short of selfish ?

simply justifying your own greed and lust for better things by saying "well I'll save a life or two with my organs when i die" is not an argument again its a cop out.

Using your own justification I cant understand why you organ donors do not give 80% or whatever of yer earnings to save a life if you dont its hypocritical and guess what, selfish.
 
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memphisto said:
I would nt throw a "hissy fit" I would sit down with her and discuss my wishes, the same as i have done in as much as discussing hers,
Discussing hers as in "I understand your belief, but I'm not going to honour it"?

I'm not trying to personally attack anyone, you're picking up on the language used in parts of my posts and ignoring the points made in other bits.

I apologise for the phrase "hissy fit", I see now that it could be construed in a manner slightly different to that which I intended.
 
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JodieG said:
Organ donation is a very emotive subject, and rightly so, it's very hard to debate or even think about it. Noone wants to make those decisions but do hope that more people allow their organs to be donated as people do die all the time when they don't need to had they had an organ donated.


as it stands today i totally agree with you. strangely enough i hope more people choose to donate, and although as it stands today although I wouldnt that could change. What I wholeheartedly disagree with is changing the entire system to opt out.

As I have said before I see it no more than a sinister ploy by the government. if you take of the rose tinted right thing to do, you selfish £$£$£$ glasses for a moment and actually think about what this could mean then Im sure a few of you may think otherwise.

I mean aside from the fact that the opt out side to this could be made nigh on impossible forcing everyone to donate, what is going to happen to all the extra orgnas ? from an article i read they reckoned about 3'000 lives could have been saved ?

well thats 3000 or less extra organ dontators in my book not 60 million ?

what will happen to all the extra organs ? sold to other countries ? sold for medical research , sold for biological research ?

Sure its all well and good saying lets all opt in but thining abotu the long term implications, I totally understand giving your organs to save a kid / father / mother whatever but would you be terribly happy knowing your organs were sold to another country ? or sold to the military or whatever ?

It may seem far fetched but what esle will we use the extra organs for ?
 
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memphisto said:
and what happens to me after I die is my business.
Technically not, as you don't actually have the ability to guarantee what will happen.

You can leave instructions, and trust that people will follow them, but the trouble is, once you die, that's it. If you leave crazy instructions (I want to be buried inside the Houses of Parliament), they won't be followed.

If you refuse consent for organ donation, but just as you pass on, a very close friend of you and your wife needs a kidney transplant, she might decide that you'd have been OK with it and overrule your consent. I'm not trying to say anything about your wife, just give an example.
 
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Mr.Clark said:
Discussing hers as in "I understand your belief, but I'm not going to honour it"?

I'm not trying to personally attack anyone, you're picking up on the language used in parts of my posts and ignoring the points made in other bits.

I apologise for the phrase "hissy fit", I see now that it could be construed in a manner slightly different to that which I intended.


Know in a I understand your belief but this is why I dont want to go through with it and why type way. I have hd this conversation told her how it would make me feel and why I dont want to have her harvested, she is fine with it and understands my reasoning. But then thats a personal thing between me and the missus.
 
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