PCN: chance of appeal >:x

Aye, Biohazard, a lot of councils just play a game of bluff rejecting informal and formal appeals and then withdraw shortly before adjudication, it is a standard MO.

/edit

Forgot to mention the PCN complies with the regs, I expected as much with Camden. After I have checked out the sign and bays I'll sort an appeal out.

We will give them the opportunity to use their discretion on the 1 minute over as an initial point with a de minimis argument, back this up with a demand for proof that the CEO's hand held device was correctly synchronised, they cannot possibly defend a contravention of 1 minute if they cannot demonstrate that the hand held device showed the correct time. Probably also make a demand for the Traffic Regulation Order using Chase v Westminster.

The good thing is that they have committed to re-offer the discount if we get an informal appeal submitted in the 14 day period, that was one of the reasons why I wanted to see the back of the PCN.
 
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dsc00339m.jpg


Very poor picture sorry, only mobile to hand. (Try making calls with it! :p)

It can be done, but you won't get an apology for their absolute lying threatening crap either will you? :mad:

Still, that was enough :)
 
Nice stuff Biohazard and very good going considering they still use RTA 1991 north of the border. In England & Wales with the introduction of TMA 2004 we get an additional ground for appeal of Procedural Impropriety which is a nice cover all for any ****-ups that are made in the enforcement process.
 
Thanks, although the internet provides you with everything you need (RTA etc) as do the council for the CPO's/TRO's etc. And oh yes I know, Scots law has benefits and downsides also.

Not because of me, although I did discover in my due process but I wasn't the first, that there are flaws in CEC's original TRO and they are now busy trying to shove through a replacement that goes on to shunt around a lot of other stuff, not just correct the wording. That had little to do with main points raised though and there were other issues with it. In total there were about 3-4 exchanges which for the subject is a fair bit before I refused further written contact, and I got a letter back stating they would no longer deal with it in letter and tribunal was last option, so I thought **** it. Knobs.

It hit the news a while later, once I had totally forgot all about it..

http://neilherron.blogspot.com/2010/04/parking-refunds-due-in-edinburgh.html

They also stole my back carpark (and probably hundreds of others, something else I should see if is public knowledge) and claimed it to be there's and subject to the RTA, and let DVLA clampers think it was fair game territory. Had that nonesense to sort out too on a SORN'd but unSORN'd vehicle (went missing in post/process, who cares not my ******* problem).

City of Edinburgh council is a complete and utter joke, you are a bunch of useless driveling tools who do nothing but waste my time and money the road department is MINCE too if you read this you bunch of *****.
 
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From the google map images the upright sign is compliant with diagram 661.3A, the bays are to diagram 1032, I can make out the correct double dashed end markings at the far end of the bay furthest from where you were parked, but the end markings nearest where you were parked are obscured by a car. Strangely if you move past the Werrington Street junction and look up the road at the bays google seems to use an older image showing bays to diagram 1028.4

Google Map showing 1032s

Google Map showing 1028.4

Can you confirm which image is correct as the bays are marked now, long single bay (1028.4) or divided bays (1032). If 1032s then what are the end markings at the Werrington Street end if you can remember?
 
@Biohazard

Neil Herron is a legend :)

I dabble a bit in RTA 1991 when there is call for it over on PePiPoo but I am far from expert. I must take some time to learn more about it.

In terms of TMA 2004 I consider myself more than competent and I am also pretty good at LLATLA 2003 for inside London moving traffic contraventions, LLA 1996 for inside London bus lanes and The Bus Lane Contraventions (Penalty Charges, Adjudication and Enforcement) (England) Regulations 2005, for outside of London bus lanes.

Yellow box junction contraventions are my latest play thing either under LLATLA inside London or the TMA outside of London, Local Authorities are totally incompetent in their enforcement of these to the extent that the do not even understand the contravention and how and when it occurs.
 
From the google map images the upright sign is compliant with diagram 661.3A, the bays are to diagram 1032, I can make out the correct double dashed end markings at the far end of the bay furthest from where you were parked, but the end markings nearest where you were parked are obscured by a car. Strangely if you move past the Werrington Street junction and look up the road at the bays google seems to use an older image showing bays to diagram 1028.4

Google Map showing 1032s

Google Map showing 1028.4

Can you confirm which image is correct as the bays are marked now, long single bay (1028.4) or divided bays (1032). If 1032s then what are the end markings at the Werrington Street end if you can remember?

I think that they are divided bays now. I am getting my friend to take some photos and send them to me.
 
I think that they are divided bays now. I am getting my friend to take some photos and send them to me.

Good stuff.

You have until the 31st to get the informal challenge in and still have them re-offer the discount if rejected, so there is a bit of time to play with at the moment.

I'll put the basic appeal together and we can add any issues with the bays if they crop up in the photographs.

/edit

There is also an argument to be made on inadequate description of the location on the PCN based on Adamou v Haringey if taken together with paragraphs 39 and 41 of the Judicial Review of Moses v Barnet:



"39. There are good policy reasons why PCNs should comply with the statuary requirements. These documents are issued in large numbers. They often change hands. A PCN may for example, be issued to a driver on one date and handed to the owner on a later date. When a PCN reaches the owner, he or she may wish to pay the discounted charge. There must always be certainty about the date when the notice was issued and the dates when the various periods for payment will expire."

"41. Mr Lewis submits that even if there was non-compliance in this respect, nevertheless no prejudice was caused, PCNs should not be regarded as invalid. I do not accept this submission. Prejudice is irrelevant and does not need to be established. The 1991 Act creates a scheme for the civil enforcement of parking control. Under this scheme, motorists become liable to pay financial penalties when certain specified statutory conditions are met. If the statutory conditions are not met, then the financial liability does not arise."

As there is more than one set of bays marked on Cranleigh Street the location could have been more specific, such as opposite house No. x or outside flats Nos. y-z, many authorities do this. If you put yourself into the position of an owner who was not the driver of the vehicle at the time then the first you may know of the contravention is when a NtO drops though the door. Could you then pinpoint the location of the contravention from the information provided?
 
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I'll just drop this in here for now to give you a flavour of where we are going, it will cause them an awful lot of work if they fail to cancel on the initial de miimis argument which I'll get written later.

I understand that you are of the opinion that I have contravened a restriction governed by a traffic order. I am aware that the legislation enabling a traffic order to be made is the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984.

Although you accuse me of this contravention you have not provided any evidence that confirms that the restriction is supported by a legally enacted traffic order. Therefore it is necessary for you to provide me with a full copy of the traffic order that you believe has been contravened and I require you to explain fully what article or articles I allegedly contravened and to direct me to the specific entry for the location concerned within the relevant schedule and to explain fully why you believe that I do not qualify for one of the given exemptions within the traffic order. It is paramount that the traffic order includes the preamble and all the articles as well as the schedules and is sealed and dated and accompanied by all maps. If the original order has been amended then it is necessary that these amendments be also provided in full. I will remind you that in the case between Terence Chase v Westminster City Council (Case No. 1960113778), the adjudicator emphasised that a council has a legal duty to provide all evidence at the earliest opportunity to an appellant. Failure to do so is considered by the courts to be prejudicial and I include Mr G R Hickinbottom’s comments for your reference:

“6. There is no express duty of disclosure on either an owner or an authority.
However, where an authority has relevant evidence - particularly evidence relating to a specific issue raised by an owner - it is incumbent on that authority to disclose this to the owner. A failure to do so would lead to a patent injustice to the owner. For example, where the Parking Attendant’s contemporaneous notes include relevant material - perhaps supporting the owner’s case - these must be disclosed to the owner at the appropriate time. Where the owner raises a point in representations in respect of which the authority has relevant evidence, that evidence should be disclosed at that (representation) stage: it should not be withheld until any appeal is made. The reason for this is not just that for an authority to withhold evidence in such circumstances would be patently unfair: disclosure of evidence at that stage also limits the number of unnecessary appeals to the Parking Appeals Service, because an owner may be persuaded not to proceed to an appeal if he has disclosed to him cogent evidence in the hands of the authority. Certainly, where an authority relies upon specific information in an appeal to the Parking Appeals Service (e.g. they rely upon contemporaneous notes of the parking attendant of the tax disc details, or other details concerning the vehicle), this must be disclosed to the appellant. If the appellant denies that those details relate to his vehicle, then it will be for him or her to put forward cogent evidence in rebuttal (e.g. a copy of the relevant tax disc, or a photograph of the vehicle or log book).
The circumstances in which it would be appropriate for an authority not to disclose evidence upon which it was relying - either at the stage of representations or an appeal - will be very rare indeed. An authority is bound to disclose such evidence by virtue of the rules of natural justice: and, as I
have said, disclosure of the information at an early stage can only result in fewer unnecessary appeals being pursued, with the attendant saving of costs that that would entail.
An appellant should also disclose any documents upon which he or she proposes to rely and, where there is to be an oral hearing, before any hearing. Of course, where there is late disclosure of evidence by either party, it will be a matter for the adjudicator as to whether to proceed or to adjourn: it will be a question in each case of what justice requires, bearing in mind the nature of the proceedings. Certainly, it will be a very rare case when evidence, no matter how late, will be shut out.”

With reference to the above I also require you to provide me with the following evidence so that I may make valued and informed judgement as to whether your case can be proved:

1) Copies of the CEOs contemporaneous notes.
2) In light of the de minimis nature of the timing of the alleged contravention, you will need to provide me with unequivocal evidence of the correct calibration and synchronisation of the clock on the CEOs hand held device.
3) In light of the de minimis nature of the timing of the alleged contravention, you will need to provide all contemporaneous photographic evidence collected by the CEO, inclusive of time stamps and evidence of the correct calibration and synchronisation of the clock on the CEOs camera.
4) The Traffic Regulation Order as specified above.

Off out will catch up with this later.
 
Ok, that is a bay to diagram 1028.4, a picture of the end marking of the far end of the bay would have been nice but with those and the google map image we can assume it complies with TSRGD 2002.

I should have time at work tonight to write an appeal based on the other points, which you can submit tomorrow, using the web system or by fax to beat the 14 day deadline.
 
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