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Peterborough by-election June 6th

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by BowdonUK, Jun 2, 2019.

  1. garnett

    Mobster

    Joined: Mar 25, 2008

    Posts: 4,014

    The funny thing is, there's nothing in the report to say who was doing the things it observed.

    ... And plenty of Brexit voters have been sufficiently duped by Farage into believing that voting for the Brexit Party was something to be proud of.

    Plenty here were very eagar to tell us they got mugged in that way. It's easy to see how many would have wanted photos of their ballot papers to post in their echo chambers.

    Similarly, on the "family voting" (and the report's concern about the secrecy of voting not being kept) front, plenty of Brexiteers came on here again to proudly proclaim how their whole family had voted for Brexit.

    :rolleyes:
     
  2. Irish_Tom

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 12,040

    If election fraud has taken place then those responsible should be punished and (depending on the scale of the fraud) the by-election should be re-run.

    I would be surprised if there were many people who disagree with the above statement, especially if they support and respect the values of democracy.

    However, if you do agree with the above, you should equally question the referendum result and unfortunately I think many people will simply ignore or dismiss any wrongdoing if it results in their preferred outcome.
     
  3. Murphy

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Sep 16, 2018

    Posts: 1,455

    The question is will the police even bother investigating and if they do how long will it take, with the illegalities surrounding the EU referendum they cited political sensitivities for their reason not to investigate (iirc).
     
  4. efish

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jan 11, 2014

    Posts: 1,073

    Indeed.

    Also not just fraud.

    Those responsible should be held to account.

    'Family voting'

    Its a cultural thing. Generally effects women's voting rights and it has strong associations with rural communities with family/ clan/ village form of social organization and usually a history of local ethnic/ religious conflict.

    Form of social pressure strongly associated with threat. Difficult to stop as it is a cultural and social norm in such environments.

    Education is seen as a key to stopping this and protecting women's rights. Nice to see Mr Farage taking an interest here and I look forward to his proposals for funding here for ethnic minority groups to ensure women's rights.

    Nationalist parties and those based on the personality of a single leader are thought to be significant contributing factors in regard to 'family voting' in communities where it is a social norm.

    I look forward to Mr Farage's thoughts here on how we can encourage and strengthen our democracy by developing political parties that are pluralistic, have broad based policy reflecting the needs and aspirations of the entire community and are free from the great leader, personality cult form of politics that allows these non-democratic forms of social origination to flourish.

    Any allegation should be investigated here. Its a serious matter.

    Brexit party and Farage are however shameful and dishonest in how they deal with these matters.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2019
  5. Hades

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 19, 2002

    Posts: 22,277

    Location: Surrey and London

    Nice case of whataboutism there by bringing Brexit into it.

    I think you miss the point being made in the article about family voting. I suspect that the 'brexiteers proudly proclaiming their whole family voted for brexit' were proudly proclaiming that their family chose to vote that way. What the linked article is likely to be refering to is that in some cultures the male head of the family demands that everyone votes the way he wants. The difference here is one group choosing to vote and another group being told or coerced to vote.

    Throwing a rolleyes into the mix doesn't strengthen your argument the way you would like it to.
     
  6. Murphy

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Sep 16, 2018

    Posts: 1,455

    @efish I see you couldn't keep it up for the entire post, if it wasn't for that last sentence you'd be forgiven for taking what you said about Farage proposing stuff seriously. ;)

    It's always nice to start the day with a smile. :)
     
  7. garnett

    Mobster

    Joined: Mar 25, 2008

    Posts: 4,014

    How to unpick that tangle of fallacies!

    The point you claim I'm missing is the prejudice you've brought to the debate to infer that this is about "certain cultures".

    If I'm wrong, show me where in the report is that point you say that I've missed.
     
  8. Hades

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 19, 2002

    Posts: 22,277

    Location: Surrey and London

    I never claimed it said that in the report. But I know it happens.

    My source? My wife is from "certain cultures". Yes I'm clearly so prejudiced that I married into a certain culture. How so very prejudiced of me.
     
  9. robgmun

    Capodecina

    Joined: Apr 30, 2006

    Posts: 14,509

    Don't worry about garnett, he sees racism in a bubblegum wrapper
     
  10. Hades

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 19, 2002

    Posts: 22,277

    Location: Surrey and London

    Thanks. Noted.
     
  11. Murphy

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Sep 16, 2018

    Posts: 1,455

    Whether it was considerable or not is questionable, IDK how big Peterborough is so i can't provide much context to the following, but Democracy Volunteers (who wrote the report) only deployed 4 observers in two teams of two, visited 23 polling stations, stayed for around 30-45min, and 'family voting' was observed in 50% in those polling stations (IDK how they divided 23 in half but whatever). While I'm not dismissing their findings or saying that more doesn't need to be done in regards to 'family voting' to say it was considerable seems a slight exaggeration.

    As i said I'm not dismissing their findings but we'd really need more information to know how widespread and to what extent 'family voting' is actually happening, i suspect it would be cheaper though to either enforce the no taking pictures rule better or better educate people that it's illegal (it is isn't it?).
     
  12. garnett

    Mobster

    Joined: Mar 25, 2008

    Posts: 4,014

    Ah, so the point I missed, was something that was not there?

    Noted.

    :rolleyes:

    Explain again why it's right and proper to read into that report that what was observed was limited to "some cultures" (your words)

    And explain how who you marry determines whether or not it's possible for you to be racist.
     
  13. Hades

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 19, 2002

    Posts: 22,277

    Location: Surrey and London

    Hang on I'll ask my Pakistani wife and mixed race kids how long I've been a racist. It must be awful living with a horrible white guy like me.

    The point I was making is that I've been told first hand, by people I know and trust (not just my wife but her wider family), that voting coercion among families in their community happens.

    So let's get this right... my Pakistani relatives tell me about it. I relay that information on. Yet I'm the racist making things up. OK :D

    Your rolleyes still does not strengthen your case :)

    You're just trying to pick a fight aren't you :)
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2019
  14. efish

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jan 11, 2014

    Posts: 1,073

    A family vote :eek: (p.s. ;) )
     
  15. Hades

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 19, 2002

    Posts: 22,277

    Location: Surrey and London

    lol :)
     
  16. garnett

    Mobster

    Joined: Mar 25, 2008

    Posts: 4,014

    Lol. Not trying to "pick a fight" - just establish that the point you insisted I'd missed was in fact something you've now conceded wasn't there.

    The rolleyes weren't intended to strengthen.my argument, just summing up the experience of having to clarify that so many times.

    And I see you've just repeated the same point about racism.

    :rolleyes:
     
  17. Hades

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 19, 2002

    Posts: 22,277

    Location: Surrey and London

    Are you saying that the report doesn't refer to family voting? It clearly does.

    Are you saying that the report doesn't say family voting is coercion from some family members? That's correct; I've never said it does. I have, however, stated that people involved in the community (for clarity I am not referring to my family being in Peterborough) have told me directly that it happens. So please point to where I said the report states that the family voting is due to coercion.

    So are you accusing me of racism/prejudice or not? If you are then I will continue to defend myself. If you aren't then what on earth is the point you are trying to make about racism/prejudice and me as it's not being made very well?

    I rarely venture into SC but had previously been led to believe that it was a more mature place to have a discussion. It doesn't appear to be.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2019
  18. Freakbro

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 29, 2010

    Posts: 14,681

    Location: Lincs

    Well, there is a lot less scatological debate...even if people still do talk **** :p
     
  19. DarkHorizon472

    Mobster

    Joined: May 16, 2007

    Posts: 2,692

    But that would apply to all voting, general elections, council elections, the EU referendum as well. The point here is the EU referendum has proven electoral irregularities and the Peterborough by election suggestions of similar but Farage says the first is the will of the people and the second a rotten borough meaning a rerun of the election. This is a ridiculous position to take and yet people line up to agree with him.
     
  20. Hades

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 19, 2002

    Posts: 22,277

    Location: Surrey and London

    I agree with you. Irregularities in any elections should be investigated and prosecuted, whether they are the Peterborough by election or the EU referendum.