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Peterborough by-election June 6th

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by BowdonUK, Jun 2, 2019.

  1. garnett

    Mobster

    Joined: Mar 25, 2008

    Posts: 4,729

    I commented on the report, and the family voting mentioned it. I said that it doesn't state who was doing it (and I pointed to Brexiteers who'd stated proudly that they knew their whole family had voted for the BXP).

    To which you replied "you miss the point being made in the article about family voting". And you go on to "explain" that it's all about "some cultures".

    Since then you've conceded that the point I missed "being made in the article" isn't in the article.

    And on the racism point, I'm saying there's nothing in the report to support your allegation the family voting was limited to "some cultures" and that being married to someone from an ethnic minority isn't proof someone is not racist.

    SC is better than GD in that it's less frequent that you need to explain the same points so many times.
     
  2. The_Abyss

    Capodecina

    Joined: May 15, 2007

    Posts: 11,738

    Location: Ipswich / Bodham

    Standards in here have fallen drastically in the past couple of years, and more so in the past few months. It is basically GD without the memes. Speed of response is valued over quality of response, debates are often very personal and there's a dishonest level of argument where facts are not proven and proven facts are ignored and often not even challenged.
     
  3. Hades

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 19, 2002

    Posts: 22,775

    Location: Surrey and London

    To reiterate, I have never said the report states this. Not once. I do stand by my assertion that it does happen. I can't be more clear about that.

    You've tried to assert several times that I've conceded to your point. I haven't. You seem strangely in need of someone conceding to your point.

    It's clear that when I refer to "some cultures" (a term I used so as to not inflame anyone) I am actually referring to the predominantly Pakistani muslim community. It would be a very strange type of racism indeed if I were to be prejudiced against Pakistani muslims.

    So as not to derail SC further with too many circuitous arguments I think we should just leave it here. I am clearly never going to concede to what you think I have conceded to, and I have no interest in whether or not you agree with me.
     
  4. efish

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jan 11, 2014

    Posts: 1,322

    Family voting certainly does happen. Its a complex issue not just an ethnic thing, the factors are situational and the situational factors reflect the political enviroment we are living in.

    People do not just do this to coerce or intimidate family members, they view collective belief as the only way to maintain internal family cohesion in the face of perceived threat.

    The wider comparison with Brexit voting habits and the way in which our society has become so divided and so quick to perceive political differences as a threat is not simply a partisan political observation.

    Unfortunately in this climate you can't remove the politics or the emotion.

    Things are not working, stress/ conflict the way it alters our minds and the way we collectively behave.
    Serious matter.

    Its something we should all be thinking about.
    To what degree can we help with solutions within our communities (both in the real world and online)/ to what degree are we part of the problem?
    How do we learn from our mistakes and misjudgments?
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2019
  5. garnett

    Mobster

    Joined: Mar 25, 2008

    Posts: 4,729

    As you say, no matter how often you're shown the truth, you'll never concede it, and you have no interest in engaging in proper debate.

    Remind me why you're here?
     
  6. Tony Edwards

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 4, 2018

    Posts: 3,337

    I think the word you are looking for is "Brexitplain".
     
  7. RedvGreen

    Mobster

    Joined: Dec 2, 2009

    Posts: 3,866

    Location: Midlands

    It is staggering when you consider the damage that has been done already to families, colleagues and communities - outside of any of the Brexit occurrences (like redundancies, paycuts etc). It is far beyond any Thatcher or Tory/Lab or Football rivalry, this is moving more towards bitter hatred when people start shouting, spouting 'traitor', and behaving with a general air of 'You just don't get it, so you're not one of us'.

    I think education needs to dramatically improve, to instill accurate unbiased accounts of history - like Axis soldiers were often forced into service against their will, and many were executed for not wanting to harm Jewish/US/EU soldiers. They were made out to be an unrelenting fury of hatred, yet they were still people - kids, even, who were fearful and in some cases, genuinely lost. Same goes for soldiers on every side, for that matter.

    Brexit perspective however would have you believe that the Axis were *all* pure evil who received enjoyment from inflicting misery. That may be true for a handful, on all sides of the battle, but is not a suitable generalisation.
     
  8. JeditOjanen

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 7, 2011

    Posts: 4,462

    That's because Brexiteers typically weren't alive in 1945. It's interesting, however, that the breakpoint for Leave/Remain occurred at age 55 (in 2016). That's about the youngest age at which I would expect anyone to have personal memories of the 1966 World Cup.
     
  9. bayo000

    Mobster

    Joined: Jan 28, 2008

    Posts: 4,120

    Location: Manchester

  10. Tony Edwards

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 4, 2018

    Posts: 3,337

  11. bayo000

    Mobster

    Joined: Jan 28, 2008

    Posts: 4,120

    Location: Manchester

    Probably. With exactly 0 MPs they are in strong position to chose which seats they target and can easily afford to not win this one. :)
     
  12. The_Abyss

    Capodecina

    Joined: May 15, 2007

    Posts: 11,738

    Location: Ipswich / Bodham

    The Brexit Party may struggle to get an effective campaign off the ground as their funding is in a state of flux at present. After the Electoral Commission concluded that the Brexit Party donation system left it exposed to a high and on-going risk of receiving impermissible funds, the party has been compelled to audit its donations and return funds where the source could not be identified as legitimate. At the time of the statement (12 June) the Brexit Party had only returned a single donation - of £1,000.

    They can't spend money they don't have (although this is precisely what Nigel Farage did with his EU parliament expenses).
     
  13. Murphy

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Sep 16, 2018

    Posts: 2,390

    Considering it used to be a LibDem constituency and they voted to leave by only 51.86% they're probably going to have an uphill battle.
     
  14. RedvGreen

    Mobster

    Joined: Dec 2, 2009

    Posts: 3,866

    Location: Midlands

    I would expect it to return to Lib Dem in that case then.
     
  15. Tony Edwards

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 4, 2018

    Posts: 3,337

    This would be an appropriate time for Labour to not field a candidate then. Although that might backfire as Labour are also a leave party so they might actually help split the brexit vote between the Tories and BXP. Tough decisions.
     
  16. RedvGreen

    Mobster

    Joined: Dec 2, 2009

    Posts: 3,866

    Location: Midlands

    Perhaps.

    I wonder what scourge BXP will scrape up to stand for them in this constituency then?
     
  17. Tony Edwards

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 4, 2018

    Posts: 3,337

    Mike Reed?

    I hear he has a knack of making catchy theme tunes aswell.
     
  18. PlacidCasual

    Soldato

    Joined: May 13, 2003

    Posts: 5,999

    I just read an ITV article that said 10,000 of the 33,000 votes cast were postal votes. I've long held reservations about postal votes, I accept there is a case for them but the access seems unduly free. Given some of the recent postal voting scandals nearly 30% postal votes seems mad.
    I don't know the rights or wrongs of the TBP case to challenge the by-election but I do worry about the integrity of our electoral system in general. You might argue about the form of election but a bigger worry must surely be the degree of fraud this system has historically been subject too and the increased opportunity for it in the future.
     
  19. Mercenary Keyboard Warrior

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Aug 4, 2007

    Posts: 9,618

    Location: Wilds of suffolk

    As someone who postal votes if there is issues with fraud then we should improve the system to make it much harder.
    I switched to postal in order that I voted at every opportunity. I just didn't have the motivation for things like european elections, now I vote for everything.
     
  20. robgmun

    Capodecina

    Joined: Apr 30, 2006

    Posts: 15,179

    Location: London

    I bring this up every General Election on this forum for the past decade. I think postal votes need to be restricted to the disabled and elderly ONLY I've heard stories of Labour activists acting like press gangs in every election i remember.