Plug-in solar / Balcony solar / DIY solar

Uther said:
Exactly. People will expect to just pop on to Amazon or down to Aldi, buy the kit, stick the plug in the socket, flick the switch and get 'free' solar power.
Paying an electrician £lol isn't what these kits are about is it?
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That's what they'll be able to do.. a lot of scaremongering in here for a miniscule risk.
 
danlightbulb said:
I can understand the edge case RCD risk.

Very limited set of circumstances where say 30mA of fault current (say you touch a faulty appliance when standing on carpet in your house - high impedance, therefore low current shock), would have normally tripped the RCD but now it doesn't because some of that is hidden from it by the solar.

Before RCDs we didn't have this protection at all. I guess a good way to describe it is we've gone from no RCDs (100% risk) to full RCDs (1% risk) and with plug in solar we might regress ever so slightly to 2% risk due to the edge cases. Obviously not real numbers just to illustrate the point.

I think that article is probably intentionally misleading - the risk of plug in solar causing direct overheating of cabling is not the concern at all.

The edge case RCD risk, yes I can understand that one.


Edit - just to add, a 'bidirectional' RCD doesn't resolve this issue either. That just means it works when the solar is pushing current back through to the grid. It doesn't change the risk of failure to trip due to sharing of fault current.

Edit 2- just to add as well to demonstrate how edge case this is - there are probably still many thousands of houses in the UK that don't have RCDs at all. My parents house still has fuses! This RCD issue on plug in solar makes absolutely no difference if you don't have RCDs in the first place.
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Yeah indeed

One thing I have found with sparks (which TBH the regs have moved to) is what seems excessive protection as if money is no object

And your right, there are still houses out there with fuse boxes who are just as likely to go and buy a plug in solar system

My issue I am concerned about more than anything, I have even seen one person on here say it, is that people will go why should I stop at one. Might as well get two or three and suddenly the risks have multiplied.
 
Mercenary Keyboard Warrior said:
My issue I am concerned about more than anything, I have even seen one person on here say it, is that people will go why should I stop at one. Might as well get two or three and suddenly the risks have multiplied.
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Good point.

I wonder if the suppliers will start to monitor and enforce this? Once people get say a few kW of plug in solar and don't have an export certificate, the suppliers will be able to see this as it will be difficult to avoid exporting a good chunk of it. Even 800W the suppliers will probably be able to see at times, my baseload is only a couple hundred watts.

They could introduce a supplier responsibility to flag if they see more than say 1000W of export without a certificate. Maybe that already happens?
 
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danlightbulb said:
Good point.

I wonder if the suppliers will start to monitor and enforce this? Once people get say a few kW of plug in solar and don't have an export certificate, the suppliers will be able to see this as it will be difficult to avoid exporting a good chunk of it.
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Cant see how it will be monitorable, the DNO will throw a wobbly at anyone caught but above that its going to be a "victimless crime"

200sols said:
Yes but people breaking the rules is not unique to plug in solar.
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I never said it was, doesn't make it right, just like "everyone speeds" doesn't mean its fine to speed

I believe the main point of limited generation without the DNO being aware is that should the equipment be faulty. and say not switch off when it should in a grid outage, that the DNO workforce are safe.
 
lovelyhead said:
Are the government really going to just say it is on the home owner to ensure that their electrics are up to spec and allow people to buy these kits, take them home and potentially plug them in to systems that might not be safe to do so?
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I don't see that being an issue tbh, not every home in the UK is up to modern wiring regs, it's on the home owner to get an electrician in and advise whether the wiring should be updated.
 
Armageus said:
Which means what exactly?

Unless you can draw a diagram showing how you can get more amps on a circuit than you otherwise would, I don't see how its possible.

If devices are consuming the solar electric you aren't going to have any more current, and if devices aren't consuming it, then you aren't drawing from the mains anyway
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Don't shoot the messenger my man. I'm no electrician but if the IET are saying there is a potential danger perhaps you should take it seriously.
 
Literally everything in this world is a potential danger. There are some extremely edge cases, e.g. one buys 5 micro-inverters and plugs them in the same circuit with an oven, induction hob, kettle and a dryer - that can take a bad turn. But the fact is there are two million of these devices installed in Germany alone, many millions more in other EU countries and the USA and there have been no serious incidents directly linked to them. So plug-in solar in practice is perfectly safe for general use. But solar installers and electricians would prefer to make some cache from the solar boom - and are spreading FUD and coming with silly excuses to stop customers from enjoying solar on the cheap.
 
SkyTerran said:
Literally everything in this world is a potential danger. There are some extremely edge cases, e.g. one buys 5 micro-inverters and plugs them in the same circuit with an oven, induction hob, kettle and a dryer - that can take a bad turn. But the fact is there are two million of these devices installed in Germany alone, many millions more in other EU countries and the USA and there have been no serious incidents directly linked to them. So plug-in solar in practice is perfectly safe for general use. But solar installers and electricians would prefer to make some cache from the solar boom - and are spreading FUD and coming with silly excuses to stop customers from enjoying solar on the cheap.
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OK but why did you buy a Bi-directional RCBO instead of just using your electrical system as is?
 
lovelyhead said:
Don't shoot the messenger my man. I'm no electrician but if the IET are saying there is a potential danger perhaps you should take it seriously.
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Lots of things are potentially dangerous - even the humble multi way extension lead, but should we ban those as well because every now and then some idiot daisy chains 4 of them and tries to run 12 electric heaters off one?

SkyTerran said:
There are some extremely edge cases, e.g. one buys 5 micro-inverters and plugs them in the same circuit with an oven, induction hob, kettle and a dryer
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That is the only situation I can see, where you plug in multiple micro inverters right next to a massive load - the MCB won't trip to protect the cable, as the MCB isn't seeing all of the power (as it's being consumed by the devices) - but you'd need over 7400 Watts - well beyond what a few plug in solar panels are going to achieve
 
Armageus said:
Lots of things are potentially dangerous - even the humble multi way extension lead, but should we ban those as well because every now and then some idiot daisy chains 4 of them and tries to run 12 electric heaters off one?
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I never mentioned banning anything.

I am all for solar. It would be very beneficial for the UK if everyone who could have solar did have solar.

But the question I asked near the start of this thread still stands. Why are people talking about having bi-directional RCBO's fitted? Is this a necessity? If it is a necessity then it must be because there is a safety risk of not having one. If there is a safety risk of not having one then it stands to reason that plug in solar is really not plug and play.

I think the fact that no one has managed to answer my question with definitive proof that bi-directional RCBO's are necessary or not speaks volumes about this being a complicated subject that needs definitive answers before mass adoption can begin in the UK. People need to be able to have the information available to them if there is a potential risk to installing these devices (or not) just like they have the information that daisy chaining 4 extension leads and running 12 electric heaters is very dangerous.

Also a lot of people are talking about how in Europe balcony solar is popular and seemingly safe but their house wiring is different to ours in the UK. The UK uses a "ring final circuit" for sockets, whereas continental Europe typically uses "radial circuits". Again I am not an electrician so don't really understand the difference but the important thing to note is that there is a difference.

Another thing I haven't seen mentioned is regarding the physical installation of these panels. Each panel weighs around 20 KG. How many are going to be zip tied on to balcony railings? Will the government regulate the installation of these panels in a way that ensures they are safely installed or will it be a free for all with people mounting them any way they like in any place they like and good luck if you are a passer by in strong winds? I have to imagine but don't actually know for sure that professional solar panel installers have to fit solar panels to your roof obeying structural safety laws.
 
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Journey said:
Are half the people in here lobbyists for foreign energy generation companies?

800w of plug in solar across a circuit designed for much higher power draw is not going to impact safety in any meaningful way. Even the edge cases in the consumer unit RCD/RCBO are so slim that if you are worrying about your house burning down you should probably not own a toaster/oven/hairdryer/air fryer etc. And if you've got a wood burning stove you may as well just set your own house on fire right now!
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The DC on the panel side is really the concerning bit. The chance of fire and delivering a lethal shock is in another realm.

For me the potential RCBO issue is a minor one and unless a property has recently been re wired there probably isn’t one. The far bigger issue at least for me, is how any systems will be terminated. A “plug in” ie 13amp UK connected to socket outlet is a non starter. Let’s get real here, a properly installed solar system like this delivering a few amps isn’t going to burn down your house or make your wiring anymore dangerous than it already is.

A G99 complaint system properly connected to fused spur taken off a wall socket will be very safe. Where I’d focus any safety efforts (only looked at eccoflow system) would be the 65 volts DC on the back of the panels, that could really ruin your day.
 
jigger said:
The DC on the panel side is really the concerning bit. The chance of fire and delivering a lethal shock is in another realm.
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A single solar panel delivering a lethal shock is order of magnitude lower than you think it is, it's in the realm of the chances of being struck be lighting twice, on the same day in two different locations. Also you generally cover the panels if working in daytime.
 
Journey said:
A single solar panel delivering a lethal shock is order of magnitude lower than you think it is, it's in the realm of the chances of being struck be lighting twice, on the same day in two different locations. Also you generally cover the panels if working in daytime.
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There are a few reasons why the DC side is more of a risk, but even some single panels run at high enough voltages to be lethal. The main issue is the exposed cables where people can come into contact with like on a balcony.
 
Very interesting - it effectively turns a standard micro-inverter into a budget hybrid inverter. It’s also more efficient than something like the EcoFlow STREAM AC Pro Balcony Power Plant 1920Wh for £714, because the Marstek can store solar energy without the extra DC→AC and AC→DC conversion steps.

One can get say two micro-inverters and four of these batteries, charge them on cheap night rate - with the big difference between day and night rate on tariffs like Octopus Go, such a setup will pay out very fast. Even with the micro-inverters required, these batteries are cheaper than Fogstar.

I wonder if the EcoFlow Stream micro-inverter is fully compatible - that is, can it charge the battery from the grid.

 
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sonospp said:
Yes, and they seem to be off self badged DC tied battery from another provider.

They are unusual as DC tied isnt the market standard. You MUST have a microinverter to get these to work. So the 299 euro price isnt an "all in" price.
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Your site by any chance?

I'm all for the kit becoming cheap as chips, for someone like me with limited knowledge they do need to include "idiots guide to..." though! I cant see why that particular battery not have a 13 plug socket matters when its feeding into your house anyway, would electrical items (below the 800w total) still not work?
 
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Was thinking about this today. I don't think we would make any use of plug in solar.

But is there a wind turbine equivalent?
 
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