Poetry: The Door Closes

Cybermyk · 23 Jan 2011 at 01:40

Rostam said:
I'm sorry, i didn't mean to seem presumptuous. I only wanted to point out that it's not easy to deal with a family member in prison for life. Specially if they are not a phsycopath or/and have not hurt anyone.
People believe in this lock them up and throw away the key policy like its nothing. This is peoples life we're talking about, wish people could go in for a week to see how it is, then mabye as a society we could promote rehabilitation instead of banging people up. I learned nothing from my time in prison. My family made me want to change my ways, only then did i want to change from inside. Prison only made things worse and put me in league with bigger criminals.

This guy might have been driven to the extream in his ideology, but wouldn't counsiling, probation, house arrest or any other number of things been better for him and the tax payers money?

Last November/December I spent many days in court on a jury because some idiot believed he had a right to have sex multiple times with his youngest daughter. He didn't seem to think it caused any harm either.

If you think inciting violence on religious grounds has never harmed anyone then you are a fool.

Castiel · 23 Jan 2011 at 01:42

mushroomsoup said:
with respect, i disagree.. by that thinking, Castile, is every leader also a coward? I think you need to elaborate

He is not the official representative of any group however, he wished to do something, but incited others to do it for him via a website.

It is no different from someone 'egging' you on to steal a car or hit the kid next door because they are too scared to do it themselves.

Castiel · 23 Jan 2011 at 01:45

Ahleckz said:
That's a terribly sweeping view. He could be called a General, and if he is capable of mobilizing 10 people into action then he is much more successful than if he did it itself and mobilized no one and it would be unfair to suggest he's a coward. Or are all leaders cowards and we shouldn't give them any time or respect?

He is not a general or the official representative of anyone. His conviction states that 'everyone should raise the knife of jihad' yet he only tells others to do so, he doesn't do so himself.

He is a coward, like many of his ilk.

Deadbeat · 23 Jan 2011 at 01:48

I read that piece in an idealistic bubble of thought from the author's intended perspective - a man jailed for paltry crimes, expressing his disgust for due process and the system which enables it. In the cold light of day, however, it's impossible to say whether this man actually deserved his punishment or not. That's not to say that he hasn't hit few sensitive nerves, just that it'd be foolish to empathise with him if that's all he was aiming for.

Rostam · 23 Jan 2011 at 01:49

Cybermyk said:
Last November/December I spent many days in court on a jury because some idiot believed he had a right to have sex multiple times with his youngest daughter. He didn't seem to think it caused any harm either.

If you think inciting violence on religious grounds has never harmed anyone then you are a fool.

Fact still remainds, rehabilitation is a lot more effective for public protection and tax payers money. I fully admit in the case you mentioned, the person is sick and should be put away for a long time. There are those that deserve to be in prison and those that don't. I can name so many examples of people who i met that never deserved even a day in prison.
I'll give an example: A guy was driving to work one day(Totally sober), a cycilist swerved infront of him and was hit by the guys car totally accidental. The cyclist a respected pentioner in the community was killed. The guy (Who had never been charged by the police ever before) was given 6 years. He was not speeding or anything. Was it fair to put this hardworking person in prison for that long? Considering he will come out no different, if not worse then when he went in (Considering he ever comes out) and also costing the public £44,000 per year (not including other services like probation, education ect)

Tefal · 23 Jan 2011 at 01:50

Superewza said:
in that if they had said something along those lines without the religious undertone then arguably nothing would have come of it.

Not really governments tend to take people inciting others to murder them quite seriously.

Like most people i imagine.

Castiel · 23 Jan 2011 at 01:52

Rostam said:
Fact still remainds, rehabilitation is a lot more effective for public protection and tax payers money. I fully admit in the case you mentioned, the person is sick and should be put away for a long time. There are those that deserve to be in prison and those that don't. I can name so many examples of people who i met that never deserved even a day in prison.
I'll give an example: A guy was driving to work one day(Totally sober), a cycilist swerved infront of him and was hit by the guys car totally accidental. The cyclist a respected pentioner in the community was killed. The guy (Who had never been charged by the police ever before) was given 6 years. He was not speeding or anything. Was it fair to put this hardworking person in prison for that long? Considering he will come out no different, if not worse then when he went in (Considering he ever comes out) and also costing the public £44,000 per year (not including other services like probation, education ect)

Beside the fact that he was on his mobile phone at the time....

PermaBanned · 23 Jan 2011 at 01:53

Tefal said:
Not really governments tend to take people inciting others to murder them quite seriously.

Like most people i imagine.

It's entirely subjective. Did he actually say 'i want you to go out and kill these people'? No. Did he mean that? Well that's for the jury to decide. But i have heard a lot of people jokingly say that we should assassinate Cameron, and even more saying that they can't wait for the day Thatcher finally goes. Should they be imprisoned too?

Cybermyk · 23 Jan 2011 at 02:01

Rostam said:
Fact still remainds, rehabilitation is a lot more effective for public protection and tax payers money. I fully admit in the case you mentioned, the person is sick and should be put away for a long time. There are those that deserve to be in prison and those that don't. I can name so many examples of people who i met that never deserved even a day in prison.
I'll give an example: A guy was driving to work one day(Totally sober), a cycilist swerved infront of him and was hit by the guys car totally accidental. The cyclist a respected pentioner in the community was killed. The guy (Who had never been charged by the police ever before) was given 6 years. He was not speeding or anything. Was it fair to put this hardworking person in prison for that long? Considering he will come out no different, if not worse then when he went in (Considering he ever comes out) and also costing the public £44,000 per year (not including other services like probation, education ect)

What was the charge for the motorist? I don't think there are any road traffic offences that carry a 6 year sentence other than causing death by careless driving or DUI. You do seem very naive.

Rostam · 23 Jan 2011 at 02:09

Cybermyk said:
What was the charge for the motorist? I don't think there are any road traffic offences that carry a 6 year sentence other than causing death by careless driving or DUI. You do seem very naive.

Naive? lol. ok.
Well anyway, i can't remember the charge exactly so i wont try to make something up. The reason he was given 6 years was for A) He was scared and fled from the scene and tried to hide and 2) He was turkish and the guy who was hit was a respected white guy (Those were his solicitors own words)

This was just one of many many many examples. The fact still remains a lot of the people behind bars do not deserve to be there. It makes them colder people, makes them self harmers or it makes them more connected to the criminal underground. I'm not saying Pedophiles, rapists and murderers should be set free, only the people who are there for minor things and/or accidents. The government should look at each case and see what would best benifit the individual instead of just throwing them in prison. Regardless of the case at hand, surely you agree to that? Most people in prison just reoffend when they come out. But managed in the community where they are found jobs and homes they can live a prosperouslife.

Cybermyk · 23 Jan 2011 at 02:20

Rostam said:
Naive? lol. ok.
Well anyway, i can't remember the charge exactly so i wont try to make something up. The reason he was given 6 years was for A) He was scared and fled from the scene and tried to hide and 2) He was turkish and the guy who was hit was a respected white guy (Those were his solicitors own words)

I see... I'm sorry but everything you said there just seems like you believe that a court sentenced a Turkish man to 6 years in prison because he was Turkish and because he was scared of the consequences of his own actions/inactions.

It doesn't mention anything factual like he wasn't paying attention to the road and hit someone with his car and fatally wounded them then ran off without checking they were alive or calling for an ambulance.

So yes, you do seem very naive.

Castiel · 23 Jan 2011 at 02:22

I doubt the fact that he was Turkish and the chap he killed was white factored into the courts sentencing somehow.

He fled the scene of a fatal accident, why?

Cybermyk · 23 Jan 2011 at 02:22

Rostam said:
The fact still remains a lot of the people behind bars do not deserve to be there.

Rostam · 23 Jan 2011 at 02:28

The arguement of bias court setences due to race is a discussion for another day, although i will say this much. The judge takes one look at a man, what he is wearing and his beard and hair style and alters his judgement and anyone who disagrees with that is naive.
Regardless of him paying attention to the road or not (and as far as i am to believe he was paying attention, and it was a blind spot where the cyclist was hit) Do you really think this man should be imprisoned for 6 years? surely community service, probation, lifetime driving ban, fines ect would suffice? what good would prison do him or the community?

Pestilence · 23 Jan 2011 at 02:39

Cybermyk said:

To be fair, I'm pretty sure that's the one part of his argument that I can agree with.

The legal view is always that individuals should be given custodial sentences only in the public interest. Remember, prison is NOT for punishment ("officially").

Surely, there are quite a few people in there who pose no threat to the wider public, but made a mistake or were careless. For them, especially individuals of a professional background, it can be a life-wrecking turn of events. How exactly, destroying the life of an otherwise hard-working and decent individual is in the public interest is beyond me. If you think it doesn't happen, then you are the naive one.

Cybermyk · 23 Jan 2011 at 02:59

Pestilence said:
Surely, there are quite a few people in there who pose no threat to the wider public, but made a mistake or were careless. For them, especially individuals of a professional background, it can be a life-wrecking turn of events. How exactly, destroying the life of an otherwise hard-working and decent individual is in the public interest is beyond me. If you think it doesn't happen, then you are the naive one.

I'll admit I have seen what appear to have been injust decisions made by courts. Having witnessed the process first hand many times however I can say that the decisions I've seen are made by the book. It isn't really down to how the judge feels that day or what the accused looks like. It's what the evidence proves and what the current sentence for the crime is. The judge only decides what the punishment should be based on the circumstantual information to hand.

For example, the maximum sentence for causing death by careless driving is 14 years, not 6.

Cybermyk · 23 Jan 2011 at 03:00

Rostam said:
The arguement of bias court setences due to race is a discussion for another day, although i will say this much. The judge takes one look at a man, what he is wearing and his beard and hair style and alters his judgement and anyone who disagrees with that is naive.

I completely disagree with that. I think you'll find a Christian, clean shaven and wearing a suit attending court with a loving and devoted family and multiple character references will find themselves in prison just as often as an islamic fundamentalist with a beard. Again, utter crap.

doofer · 23 Jan 2011 at 03:15

I find it deeply hypocritical and sadly ironic that some Muslims will claim injustice and even prejudice for the Legal Penalties of a Conviction for an Offence here in the UK that would probably bring them Death or Corporal Punishment in a fully Islamic State with Shariah Courts. Still, got to laugh eh?

Rostam · 23 Jan 2011 at 03:40

doofer said:
I find it deeply hypocritical and sadly ironic that some Muslims will claim injustice and even prejudice for the Legal Penalties of a Conviction for an Offence here in the UK that would probably bring them Death or Corporal Punishment in a fully Islamic State with Shariah Courts. Still, got to laugh eh?

Thus the widely used term.. ''The free world''

doofer · 23 Jan 2011 at 03:57

Rostam said:
Thus the widely used term.. ''The free world''

There is no 'Free World', wherever you go there are other people there will be restraints, some places are less restrictive than others is all, no-one is completely Free to do or say as they please without consequence in a supposedly 'Civilised' Community, if you break the Code of Conduct then you suffer the consequences.

I know that your Muslim Friend in Prison here for Inciting Violence on Govt. Members would definitely not be in a Cell writing poetry or anything else if he had done so in an Islamic State, he'd be dead.

Have your cake and eat it, try not to choke on it when it gets hard to swallow is all.