Police dealing with incident on London Bridge amid reports of shots fired

[Chris Wilson]

IPP was a knee jerk reaction in the aftermath of 2001 and consequently was pretty **** as it didn't stand the test of time. Another knee jerk reaction that simply fails long term, is not a solution, especially if it's just to cynically win votes.

The European court of human rights has ruled "arbitrary and unlawful" the operation of indeterminate sentences for the protection of the public (IPPs), currently being served by more than 6,000 prisoners in England and Wales.

The Strasbourg judges said the prison system was "swamped" by prisoners without fixed release dates after the indeterminate sentences were introduced in 2005. They said the three inmates who brought the case had "no realistic chance" of accessing the rehabilitation courses they need to qualify for release.

The new justice secretary, Chris Grayling, told MPs he was disappointed by the judgment, and intended to appeal against it. He said: "It is not an area where I welcome the court seeking to make rulings."

The unanimous ruling by seven judges, including the British judge Sir Nicolas Bratza, awarded up to €8,000 (£6,500) compensation to three prisoners, Brett James, Nicholas Wells and Jeffrey Lee, who have been held up to two years and 10 months longer than the original minimum recommendation of their trial judge. They were also awarded €12,000 costs each.

A source you will like:

https://www.theguardian.com/law/2012/sep/18/strasbourg-judges-indeterminate-sentences-unlawful

Bung `the poor sods a few quid when you are there, their move to the Smoke has near bankrupted them, Manchester was deemed unsuitable

 

[D.P.]

It's not a knee jerk reaction to discuss ideas though as is being done here.

I don't mind rehabilitation as one means of justice but I think that incarceration sits alongside it.

I.e. if someone hasn't reformed through the course of their sentence and still presents a harmful risk to the public , they shouldn't be let out.

Your latter point is exactly how the justice system works. Terrorists and murderers are not let out when it is deemed they are still a risk. Evidently the issue is we simply do t have the resources and means to properly determine that.

 

[Lord-Jaffa]

Well he became radical, it's fair to assume its possible to reverse it, but i doubt anyone here will give an answer that isn't just an opinion. It's certainly better to see if it's possible than to waste time/resources shredding our culture over it, if it's not possible, then we'd at least know and can appropriately respond.

Ultimately knowledge is power, I don't feel great about just laying waste to people if they can be saved.

This opinion here is why you are so very wrong when it comes to radicals, they are absolutely entrenched in their ideals and there is no salvation from it. Because you dont understand or believe this, you're unable to change your point of view. Challenging their beliefs is rarely ever possible, it's what they have based their entire existence and identity around. People rarely ever change.

 

[MOOGLEYS]

Set up an island with the basic needs and leave them there to fend for themselves. Occasionally send in hyenas and swarms of wasps for our entertainment. Show on prime time TV. Profit....?

please no Bear Grylls will be all over it...... lol

 

[NVP]

I think both are a concern. Though rehabilitation is rather hit and miss in general let alone the fact we’re talking about a fanatic here who wanted to plan a Mumbai style attack.

I think keeping someone like that locked up is more of a priority - why risk it when it gets that extreme?

For this guy to have attended seminar and struggle with aquiring help it appears he possibly suffered some form of mental health issue which may have been highlighted during these types of sessions or assessments. Locking someone like that away becomes selfish if we don't attempt some type of intervention.

 

[Chris Wilson]

This opinion here is why you are so very wrong when it comes to radicals, they are absolutely entrenched in their ideals and there is no salvation from it. Because you dont understand or believe this, you're unable to change your point of view. Challenging their beliefs is rarely ever possible, it's what they have based their entire existence and identity around. People rarely ever change.

Quite, well said. IS openly declare war on the West, yet people, possibly kindly and well meant people, actually believe their foot soldiers in the US and Europe are able to be made to love us, whereas the fact is they use and hate us, the bridge killer openly derided the UK dole system and intended to set up a Jihad training camp in Pakistan, alongside several others. His mates are also now wandering around, presumably similarly without effective restraint.

These people are not open to reasoning with, they want to, and do, kill us, given any chance. Locking them up and then releasing them just means we have to fight them again, probably after being further radicalised in prison, and due to their incarceration. I am none interventionist in regard to the Middle East, let them get on with annihilating each other, the West has not the stomach to fight them effectively, nor has the USA, so fiddling about just fuels the fire. The US public won't endure or endorse what's needed to wipe them out, but still see relatively "mini battles" as good ideas. We also need to do our best to ensure our porous borders and immigration system is tightened substantially.

 

[dowie]

For this guy to have attended seminar and struggle with aquiring help it appears he possibly suffered some form of mental health issue which may have been highlighted during these types of sessions or assessments. Locking someone like that away becomes selfish if we don't attempt some type of intervention.

Maybe, or maybe it was aimed at criminals in general and was part of his release conditions... again I don't disagree that rehabilitation is a good thing.

Regardless letting someone like that out after only 8 years is ridiculous, that's the main thing here re: serious terrorism cases (we're not just talking about some jihadi wannabe/radicalised person on some secondary charge but rather someone planning a serious atrocity at the time) - they ought to be locked away for a long time regardless.

 

[Nasher]

OFC he had a mental health issue. You'd have to have to be an Islamic extremist to begin with.

 

[StriderX]

This opinion here is why you are so very wrong when it comes to radicals, they are absolutely entrenched in their ideals and there is no salvation from it. Because you dont understand or believe this, you're unable to change your point of view. Challenging their beliefs is rarely ever possible, it's what they have based their entire existence and identity around. People rarely ever change.

Hmm. Well how about you provide proof for your assertion.

 

[adam cool dude]

I don't think you can deradicalise a person. All you could end up doing is suppressing their feelings and they revert back once they are out of the system.

Half of them will go along with rehabilitation etc just to get cleared then just go about their business when released.

The old saying a leopard never changes his spots comes to light. Take alcoholics for example they are never cured. They are just suppressing their urge not to drink even though deep down they want it.

 

[StriderX]

The old saying a leopard never changes his spots comes to light. Take alcoholics for example they are never cured. They are just suppressing their urge not to drink even though deep down the want it.

Well that's a ridiculous comparison. (and by that i mean the lack of evidence for how this is remotely relevant to extremism)

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/magazine/how-to-de-radicalise-an-extremist

I don't expect you can deradicalise the heavily indoctrinated individuals, but it seems to me that there's potential to lead people back from getting that far, simply ignoring it will just fuel the recruitment while we **** away chances to cut it off. I feel rather strongly about the links of crime and poverty/lack of avenues to success, and it's only worse for ethnicities other than white. Though Terrorism is rather specific to Muslims for obvious reasons, it's still essentially a crime at heart (though more complex).

https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures...-24-year-olds-only-white-and-other-than-white

A rather simplistic window into a bigger problem, but it's pretty big hint with 'Other than White' being almost twice as likely to be out of employment between 16 and 24 years of age.

 

[thenewoc]

I'm English and share few, if any, views and values with you. I think you're an abhorrent person and would be absolutely distraught if my daughter ended up voicing the views that you do.

Rather strong to label someone who thinks the UK should have a points based immigration system and possibly the death penalty for the most serious of crimes as abhorrent. My values put UK citizens well being before the hopeless optimism of letting anyone and everyone in without any checks in the case of EU FoM immigration and the rights of the many before terrorists being let out having only served half their sentence. You should question your own leftist views before labeling people abhorrent.

 

[Josh]

Prisons no longer have the staffing for rehabilitation, it's literally a holding area until they get released back into society.

 

[Terminal_Boy]

Prisons no longer have the staffing for rehabilitation, it's literally a holding area until they get released back into society.

Outsource the prison service to the Chinese. Cheap and efficient with a 0.00% re-offence rate.

 

[stockhausen]

No message.

 

[Uther]

Just found out the name of the girl who died. I knew her, she was a friend of my sons.
RIP Saskia

 

[dowie]

OFC he had a mental health issue. You'd have to have to be an Islamic extremist to begin with.

You don't have to be, if they truly believe in the particular brand of Islam then... Plenty of humans have the capacity to kill innocent civilians including women and children so long as they believe that what they're dong is right/for the greater good* etc... While terror attacks are absurd to us, for someone with that framework/mindset they can be logical. Some terrorists are mentally ill, sometimes they're used by terror groups for that reason too, others can be reasonably well educated/otherwise intelligent individuals.


*for example RAF aircrew involved in firebombing Dresden, USAF aircrew who dropped the atom bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

 

[stockhausen]

No message.

 

[wesimmo]

cf the Crusades, the Reformation, Bloody Mary, the Spanish Inquisition, Northern Ireland, opposition to a woman's right to choose, etc., etc., etc.

Or even now, religious fanaticism that puts lives at risks and makes criminals of doctors.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...eme-abortion-bill-reimplant-ectopic-pregnancy

 

[stockhausen]

No message.